3/29/2012 10:30:00 am

Another LFC Legend joins Kenny Dalglish in celebrating *mediocrity*

Liverpool are currently languishing in 7th place in the premier league table, and if the club loses this Sunday's game against the Newcastle, the gap between 6th and 7th could become an insurmountable eleven points. Clearly, there's a very real possibility that Liverpool could finish the season in seventh, but Anfield legend Steve Nicol insists that even if that happens, the club will have moved forward from last season.

Liverpool manager Kenny Dalglish recently launched the following impassioned celebration of mediocrity:

"These players have done fantastically well and if anyone is going to come in they will have to be a hell of a player to do better than what this group has done. These boys are in pole position and they are sitting there comfortable; not one of them can be disappointed with what they have contributed this season"

There seems to be an increasing effort to convince the fans to accept mediocrity, and Steve Nicol is the latest to try and gloss over this season's league failure. Speaking to ESPN recently, Nicol argued:

"Kenny wants to win the league, so seventh is not acceptable for Kenny, but they have the Carling Cup in the bag, and a good chance at the FA Cup, so I think they're moving forward.

"You just have to look at where Liverpool are now against where they were a year ago. They're much better this year; they didn't win the Carling Cup last year, did they?


Nicol is entitled to his opinion but I have to admit, I despise this way of thinking. If Liverpool finish 7th (or worse) with fewer league points than last season, how does that make the team 'better' than last year? How does that constitute overall progress?

Kenny and his ex-teammates are trying their hardest to change fan-perception (i.e manage expectations downward) but the idea that winning the Carling Cup is a sign of overall progress is (IMO) nonsense. Perpetuating that view also damages Liverpool's credibility, especially when revered club legends like Dalglish and Nicol use it as an excuse in public.

Constantly going on about the importance of the Carling Cup is over-compensating, and it makes Liverpool look desperate. Yes, it's a trophy, but it seems to me that the club is endlessly trying to ascribe a level of importance to it that just doesn't exist.

If Alex Ferguson endlessly lionised the Carling Cup; used it as an excuse for poor league performance, and actually argued that winning it is more important than finishing 4th (as Steven Gerrard has done) I would find it hilarious, and I'm sure lots of rival fans would ridicule United.

Plus, it's not as if winning that trophy has done the club any good, is it?! Since the win, league form has become progressively worse, yet we were constantly told by Dalglish, his players and ex-players beforehand that winning the Carling Cup would push the club into 4th place.

I don't know about anyone else, but Nicol and Dalglish are never going to convince me that winning the Carling Cup is a sign that Liverpool are 'moving forward'.

Jaimie Kanwar


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73 Comments :

Tornike Khomeriki said...

If being awful in the league but winning cups is good enough for us, why were we unhappy with Benitez? Also, he won cups that really mattered, not these nonsense ones, which were won in a scrappy poor performance against a (presumably) much weaker team.

OriginalChan said...

Our performances in the league in the second half of last season were much better than the so-called performances we have put up this season. 

Cerasstar said...

Tornike... right on mate!

Afdf said...

boring

Banoog said...

Lots of criticism for KD and the players on this site - not unwarranted. Would just like to know what players/manager people feel would serve the club well?

Macdarth said...

Totally agree with jaimie, i'm really getting sick of all this nonsense coming from ex-players. When rafa and then roy were in charge they wouldn't get off their backs (I'm not saying i liked hodgson or even wanted him to get the job in the first place) but after 2 games every ex-player was coming out against him, he was destined to fail from the start. This time around they are doing the opposite with Kenny when he so clearly needs a reality check as to the state of the squad he has assembled.

MB LFC said...

IF we win both cups well that gives us some hope but definitely does not constitute moving forward unless we finish in the top 4 or 5 and not putting my money on that..

Bekim said...

They won't convince me either mate. We r becoming something of a joke now. For them to try and convince us that wining CC and finishing 7th is progress its its beiyond being ridiculous. Saying that they r managing to convince some of the fans cos lots of them r excepting mediocrity. Cos every time they don't like something we say about KD we r being told we r not proper LFC fans. I'm actually very sad at what we have become.

Bekim said...

U r Spot on mate. Also if Benitez was in charge now and the same position this ex players wouldn't come out and support him. Hipocricy at the highest order.

Ggdd said...

When Roy was is charge we did not play a single second of football that anyone would want to watch. It was dreadful. This year at times we have played very attractive football and can see there is a hope once players settle in and have some time. The last thing anyone wants is to change managers every year and become a ridiculous team like Chelsea.
Liverpool fans suppose to be patient and not moaning about their team all day long. This site is the worst on the net for this. Wake up and show some class.

Macdarth said...

thats a tough one banoog, it really depends on what managers are/were available. obviously i'm sure rafa would put his hat back in the ring for the job and i would be interested to see what he would do with the backing of henry/werner and co. henry/werner are also on record i believe saying how in baseball they like to appoint an up and coming coach, back him over 3/4 seasons no matter what and see where it goes, if they brought that into football then i would be interested in seeing what someone like brendan rodgers could do or di matteo if he doesn't get the chelsea job, i was always a fan of his at west brom.

GregBunting said...

It's called ex players having one rule for their mate Dalglish and one rule for another. It's quite simply Jamie. Stay well clear of ex liverpool players opinion on liverpool particularly with Dalgliish the manager. The only guy who is honest and transparent is Aldrisge. The rest are Dalglish cheerleaders.  Dalglish needs to go in the summer. This season has been all about regression, awful signings, dhocking media relations and poor tactical acumen.  Carling cup shouldn't save his hide in my opinion.  Simply can't be trusted with company/transfer funds

Banoog said...

Good response. I feel in the meantime, they will stick with KD because stability is important, despite results. Kenny is passionate about the club, as long as he has the support of the players, things should improve. I don't feel he is the long-term solution, however.

Once he leaves, I do feel FSG will go for a younger manager as I think was the original plan. A high-profile manager may be what Lfc need, but as you say, it depends on who's available at the time, an up-and-commer may be easier to lure.

What concerns me is that there are suggestions emerging that not much money will be available in the summer. This suggests to me that only one big-name signing is possible or a few cheap signings. Without Champions League football, the latter seems more likely. This may work out well as it surely means targeting cheaper, foreign, 'flair' players.

YNWA96 said...

I think there needs to be a balance between pride in the club's history and a sense of realism. We cannot just project the club's former glories onto the current team and get angry at the relative dearth of trophies. It can give us a sense of ambition, but it can also make us a little delusional and sometimes a little disrespectful to what other clubs are achieving now. 

I think Kenny Dalglish embodies the former, more positive side of our history in that he was not happy with the success of the Carling Cup and wants to spur the club on. And the way he's doing that, by giving the team a more attractive pass and move style, will most likely pay dividends sooner rather than later. The fact is, we've played most teams of the park this season. 

So what we've inherited in playing style and ambition means it may just be a matter of time and that greater success is just round the corner. I'd prefer this more patient and positive, and also more realistic, type of support for which our club is famous. And this website, in my opinion, is not.

Jack said...

Are we celebrating mediocrity or are we in fact, as Kenny has mentioned 1000 times now but no one is listening/or understands, celebrating progress??

Jaimie K said...

I love KD as much as any fan but appointing him in the first place was a romantic decision, and not a football one. It showed that Liverpool are still living in the past, and despite the great strides forward recently (commercially etc), the club took a step backward by trying once again to cling onto the past.

Obviously, in his first few months back the club would get a lift, and we saw that with improved form in the last part of the season, but the honeymoon is over now, and KD's deficiencies as a manager are being cruelly exposed.

He is simply not suited to the modern game; indeed, any manager who constantly moans about 24 hour media is simply not cut out for such a high profile job. This is the reality these days, and managers need to take it in their stride, not continually waste energy by endlessly battling with the media.

That may have worked 25 years ago, but it doesn't now.

There's too much sentimentality at LFC. Dalglish needs to step down in the summer and a more progressive, forward thinking manager needs to be appointed. That will be tough for LFC fans, but it's the right thing for the *club*

As for candidates: I second Brendan Rodgers, but the problem with that is 'fans' will be on his case the minute he has a few bad results, and he'll be hounded out of Anfield just like Roy Hodgson. Fans will also be on his back from day 1, with the same old excuses: not enough experience; never won anything and blah blah blah.

Other possibilities:

* Martin O'Neill - I've been arguing for him to be appointed for almost 10 years but I fear Liverpool have missed their chance. He's 60 now - we needed him when he was late-40s/early 50s.

* Marcelo Bielsa - Very good manager, but again approaching 60.

* Paul Lambert - A good shout, but would suffer the same problems as Rodgers.

* Andre Villas Boas - He's made for Liverpool if you ask me; he should've been appointed instead of KD last summer.

I think FSG will take a serious look at both AVB and Rodgers in the summer, and I would personally be happy with either.

gabweb said...

Winning cups proves nothing. It buys a stay of execution, if we win the FA Cup, which is looking increasingly unlikely. The way we won the Carling Cup, on penalties to Cardiff, is how we have been playing, mainly, ever since. The team is declining and Everton will be much harder at Wembley than they were a couple of weeks back.

Everyone who thinks winning cups means a lot, we had a tough Carling Cup run, but most teams are not going flat out for that, but do most people think we would have gone this far in the cup if we had not been drawn at home every game? Do those people think we will win the Cups next year? You can't base any plans on winning cups. If we don't win a cup next year and we are 6 points off 4th this time next season, that still is not good enough. But it will be improvement. Winning cups should be a result of a team, naturally, being one of the best in the country and, therefore, always more likely to be in contention. Chelsea's recent FA Cup record is because they are good enough to be i contention naturally. Our good cup runs this year are just fluke. Because we've shown that there are any number of teams that could have put us out of either cup in the wrong, for us, circumstances.

Gary352 said...

Attractive football you say? There's a major flaw in what you are stating. Suarez, Kuyt, Bellamy and Rodriguez. These are players that play attractive nippy football. They read the game really well and they move very well "off the ball". How is it that Liverpool played so well last year?

On the other hand Carroll has no talent, and people are saying "oh he hasn't been given a run of games", well Babel had the same problem too didn't he but there was more potential in him (which was dissapointing that it didn't work out) than hoping in Carroll.

 And then there's Downing, here is one snapshot that describes this player. Suarez plays a pass to him against Wigan I think, he didn't bother making a run and was ball watching expecting Suarez to do something on his own. Suarez waves his hands up in disgust, and the commentator defends the British winger by saying Suarez should cut out his whining antics!! 

Then there is Henderson, who all in all should be playing centrally. He doesn't have the movement of a winger which was so apparent from his games playing on the right. His credibility is getting ruined and is just heaping pressure on the poor guy. He has talent, but he is only 21, there is time to learn so why not have him learning from the bench? Its all about the NOW and Rodriguez, or Bellamy would be a better option. 

Then there is Adam. What did Kenny expect from a player of his build. If that is what it takes for a player to make it at Liverpool I should quit my job and start training, even if I do not possess the talent or physique of a "elite" player, it shouldn't matter should it?

Banoog said...

Personally, I wanted Rijkaard from the start. I felt he would have brought a brand of attractive, attacking football that Lfc fans would appreciate. 

Re: Lambert and Rodgers, you're right, they would face a huge task keeping fans convinced they have what it takes to do the job. Something else to consider is, without Champions' League football and with Lfc's profile not being what it was, a well-known, well-respected manager is probably what Lfc need to help attract big names to the club. When Benitez left, I felt that maybe it was for the best, but we lost his ability to attract high-profile players.

Sir Bob said...

What utter rubbish, Roy Hodgson deserved to be hounded out, clueless one dimensional manager which brings me nicely to MON also the same as Hodgson if he ever gets the LFC job i will walk away from the team and game i love.AVB is going to inter in the summer, Paul L and Brendan R won't get it either not enough experince, So why are you mentiong these people??

OriginalChan said...

no one is listening/or understands........or disagrees

Philip Dean said...

a lot of fans have gotten very anxious, this has now started to breed a quick fix and want it now mentality. I fear if KD does get the sack this will only intesify to make the liverpool managers post as bad as chelsea's. Our performances are not to the standard but I will definitely give KD another season. This will signify the owners are not always swayed by fans, are patient and give time to thier manager. Having this type of attitude instead of the one that is currently adopted at chelsea may see KD replaced by a very good manager, as the new manager will know he will have time to get it right. If we start chopping and changing every year, we will slowly end up like Newcastle a couple of years ago and no manager worth his sought would want to join the club as they know that unless they deliver on the spot, especially without the money of man city and chelsea, they will feel the fans anxiety in the first 6 months.
 One of my friends who is a Newcastle fan commented that some Liverpool fans are acting like Newcastle fans a couple of years ago. Newcastle fans had the arrogance to think they should be in CL football every year and would put pressure on managers if they did not deliver immediately, this attitude led to thier downfall and eventual relegation; due to a squad of players that where signed by a multitude of different managers, lack of confidence and a lack of continuity. it is only when they experienced relegation did the penny actually drop.

OriginalChan said...

The tone was set by the owners in the beginning of the season. No CL qualification  =  'major disappointment'  said Henry
I didn't expect a title challenge, not even close but I expected a proper fight from us for 4th after what we showed in the second half of last season. 

gabweb said...

Kenny is also clueless in the modern game, he has shown it many times, people just refuse to see this. He is out of his depth. Marin O'Neill is a much better manager than him. He'd have sorted this team out. Anyone who has seen Sunderland this season can see what a difference he has made. Same at Leicester, same at Villa, and the respective records at Celtic shows who the better manager is. It is not even close.

People should start supporting the club and stop supporting Dalglish, Suarez, Gerrard, whoever.

gabweb said...

mediocrity.

gabweb said...

Do you know the difference between patience and blind faith? I keep asking the apologists what will change next season, and no one says anything. How is this pass and move going to pay dividends? When? Who is going to come up trumps? What happens when Gerrard can't carry the team anymore? Where is this improvement going to come from? Who is going to show it? Patience is having the answers to those questions, blind faith is saying we will improve but not saying how.

It may just be a matter of time? It may just be a matter of time until you win the lottery also!

OriginalChan said...

But no patience and no non-stop moaning for when Hodgson was in charge? 

gabweb said...

Agreed, wouldn't mind AVB, but reckon Inter will snatch him. We definitely should have taken O'Neill and I think that he deserved a top 6 club after his work with Celtic, rather than having to make Villa a top 6 club. Of all the managers in the league, apart from the obvious couple, his record is second to none, and that includes Redknapp.

I'm not convinced our owners are that savvy in football matters, to be honest. They explained the sale of Torres and the purchase of Carroll with the financial fair play rules, which were not really an issue at that point. I still think they have a lot to learn and reckon they will look for a famous manager rather than the right manager. Bielsa would definitely be a good shout also, i think but not sure he is high profile enough for our owners.

GregBunting said...

mark lawrenson has broken rank in his daily post column lLabelled all his signings average

Red said...

Something like getting rid of these obcene signings, like Carroll,Adam, Henderson and Downing, would go a long way, for starters, than appoint a manager, who knows what he's doing!.

scallyryan said...

Ha ha. 1st time that I have actually agreed with anything you have posted JK. AVB would be a Quality Manager who just needs time and support of players and the board!!!!!  Disagree with Hodgson comment though, his signings were worse than Dalglish and standard of performances were dreadful, atleast we are attck inded nowadays if not getting results.
Now we have won the inferior Carling Cup, its a piece of silverware, we can play complete fringe players in Cups next year and focus on the bread and butter league!!!Which I agree is not acceptable where we find ourselves!!!

gabweb said...

I think you will find that the relegation was caused by poor management and poor signings, not supporters. We've got poor management and poor signings now. Another year or two of the same is what gets teams relegated, not what the supporters say or think.

Bekim said...

AVB or RAFAEL BENITEZ 4ME.

OriginalChan said...

Years of mismanagement from chairman, directors and managers caused their downfall. From the laughable wage and transfer fee negotations by Shepherd to get Luque (They basically let Depor and Luque take them to the cleaners over the money, which illustrated what a bunch of cowboys were running the finances over there), to Wise telling Keegan to look up new signing Ignacio Gonzalez on YouTube, to the dismantling of the Keegans' Entertainers by the next manager, etc. It was a absolute joke the way that club was run and that had very little to do with the expectations of the Newcastle fans. No one put a gun to their directors' heads, forcing them to spend huge money on wages on players like Xisco, Luque, Guivarch, etc. 

The club messed up Keegans' Entertainers and for quite a few years, they were trying to get the club back to that level....in horrendous and comical fashion. That was why Shepherd & Co did what they did after going so close with the Entertainers but got it badly wrong. 

Scrapack said...

People are praising Martin O'neill but have you seen the standard of football he plays. Lets just say his teams are more then partial to just hoofing up to the big man up top. Thats been his style since day one and in all honesty we would just get fed up with him after a while

HawkEye said...

I really son't think bringing raffa back is a good idea even though i didnt have a problem with him. AVB would be the best way to go.

gabweb said...

Even if he got us to a European final anytime soon? Rafa did not play the most exciting football either and people did not mind him. If you consider the teams that O'Neill managed, they were mainly punching above their weight, not sure Celtic were playing hoofball in Europe, though, or when they knocked us out of the UEFA Cup.

And what great stuff is Dalglish producing, slow, no width, lack of movement, not that exciting!

gabweb said...

I know, shocking. Changing managers had little to do with it, apart from the fact that they had the wrong managers after Keegan. They even began to become a bit of a Cup team for a couple of seasons, two cup finals. Which brings us back to..........................

Scrapack said...

I agree about Dalglish, not a fan of him and it was a sentimental mistake from the start, we needed Frank Rijkaard who showed at Barca, a club that was in Madrids shadows that he was big enough to have a vision and achieve it.

Come on lets be really honest O'Neills team have never played decent pass and move football. Its always been hoofing it up to the big man or just throwing crosses in the box. We are not a small club we have a huge reputation and we need to play good football, we need to start NOW and create an Identity of how we want to play football and hopefully win trophies along the way. O'Neill is another short term option who plays one way and will not evolve.

gabweb said...

But he wins things and whatever you asked his clubs supporters about their expectations, his teams always exceeded them. Which must be hard to do, season after season, at a club like Celtic. His Villa teams played some decent football, with Milner, Barry, Young in there. After Arsenal, how many other teams in the EPL really play pass and move? 

I think that O'Neill is just the kind of manager that we need, he'd shake the complacency out of every one of them, I like Rijkaard, just not sure he would be able to do that. There is something wrong in the sqaud and we need a certain type of manager, a motivator and someone who doesn't accept any nonsense, to sort it out.

Jack said...

I can guarantee you Kenny isn't celebrating mediocrity. But what he has is perspective, which unfortunately alot of LFC fans don't. He realises that to get to the top, from the depth we've fallen to, you need to take it one step at a time. We have taken that 1st step. Next season, we should expect better than this. Then the season after, better than that & so on. THAT is called progress. And that is all we can demand! If you have the money of a Man City, Chelsea then you can leap a few steps & get to the top quicker but ultimately it's the same process every club has to go through in order to be at the top.

OriginalChan said...

Xisco, unbelievably, is still on their books! 

They can't get rid of him, so they farm him out on loan nearly every season

Luque had plenty time left on his contract but although the money was great, he didn't like living in Newcastle and wanted to play more, so went off to Ajax I think

But Xisco seems happy to finish the length of his contract, as I guess he won't get the money he gets at Newcastle, anywhere else! The same happened with Marcelino......at Newcastle, who made like 15 appearances in 4 years

I think Xisco's contract ends in 2013. 50k per week on a 5 year contract, despite proving bugger all before signing for them

All down to Dennis Wise, the Xisco catastrophe

Scrapack said...

We are past the stage of having a manager that based purely on the basis that he picks up some trophies whilst not consistenly competing for the League title. We want to be competiting for the league title consistently, we may not win it however we want to be competing for it, O'Neill will never do that.


I have no doubt that for the Short-Term he would be good but for the Long-Term he is exxactly what we do not need. We need someone to lay down some solid foundations within the club, Create a philosphy/ playing style in the same way that Wenger has for Arsenal and we know O'Neill will not do that.

Arsenal are the best at passing and moving but I think you are overlooking alot of teams that play that way admittedly not to the same standard.... United, Spurs, Fulham, Swansea, Everton, Norwich, City 

gabweb said...

Still think he may get Sunderland above us this season which, quite frankly, sells him to me straight away. No one thought they would go down once he got there. When he speaks, like Wenger, I also like the fact that it sounds like common sense. The other night, he just said that they just 'didn't perform' which summed up why they lost. Simple, no nonsense, no waffle, no excuses. I think he would get us back in the top four, after that it is up to the owners to find someone to build on that. Agree that pretty football isn't his thing, but his results are excellent.

Yes, some of the other teams play decent, attractive football, but i think many of them will change their style if a certain player is bought or sold.

Banoog said...

I still would like to see Rijkaard at the club. I was concerned as to whether he would be tough enough on the underachievers. I am surprised at the call for Martin O'Neill, though. No doubt winning is everything, but style of play has always been a big part of what Liverpool teams have been about. I guarantee you, however, that if we gained a top four spot by playing route one football, there would still be a bunch of supporters who would complain. Because as fans, no matter what team we support, we always have to complain about something.

Isn't anyone concerned that someone like Martin O'Neil is just a 'mid-table' manager, in the same way that the summer signings are proving to be mid-table players? Success at one club doesn't necessarily translate into success at another. All this talk about Andy Carroll being talentless is nonsense! He managed very well playing for NUFC, but playing for Lfc is obviously a different beast altogether. Ideally, what Liverpool need is a manager with a winning record that can instil a winning mentality into the players.

gabweb said...

Xisco! Xisco pretty much ended Dennis Wise's football career, really. That was painful to watch and knowing that he is still on their books explains a lot. Funny thing is that we probably have paid off the remainder of Xisco's contract now. People slated Ashley up there but no one is slating him now. He found the right manager at the right time, after removing another good manager, when people would have said it was hasty and the team were going backwards. That's the example that i would rather take from Newcastle, making changes that were not popular to move the team forward. I'd say that nearly everyone thought they were made to move on Hughton, I certainly did, and even more so thought that moving Nolan, Barton and Carroll on would cause the club to implode. Seems to me that someone else decided the opposite and felt that the club needed these guys to move on to progress. Wonder if we have anyone willing to do the same at our club?

Scrapack said...

He might get ahead of us but how will he build on it next year,  thats where the problem is.
Look for the short term he is fantastic but the long term I personally don't think he is the answer especially when their are plenty Young FORWARD thinking managers about at the moment

gabweb said...

O' Neill - Probably top 4 form with Sunderland, along with Arsenal, since he was appointed. Top 6 for three years on the trot with Villa, who have not been anywhere near the top half since he left, Leicester won the carling cup, like us, and made another final while he was manager, Celtic reached a UEFA Cup Final, beating us in the semi final, losing in extra time to Porto, managed by a particular Mourinho, who went on to win the Champions League the next season. He even excelled at Celtic. Look at them since he left, average. Agree, the football might not be the prettiest, but he has had some decent players in his time, particularly at Villa, Milner, Barry, Young, Agbonlahor. Agbonlahor was twice the player under O'Neill than since he left Villa. Milner was probably a better player as well.

Not sure who, with a flowing style of play, will instil a winning mentality into our squad. I think O'Neill would certainly have made Reina sit out the odd game this season, would have probably promoted Coates over Carragher, and would have played Downing and Carroll together more. I actually think that a decent, modern, manager could have got THIS team, as it is, into the top 4.

gabweb said...

I think that whoever we bring in should, with average luck, have been successful in their previous two jobs before managing us. One success is not enough for me. That includes O'Neill, certainly, and a couple of others. He still has youngsters in that squad that he can bring into the squad in future, such as Wickham. I think it is hard to build on 7th or 8th with Sunderland, though. He built on success at Celtic by nearly winning a European trophy, after Kenny had nearly brought the same club to its knees.

Banoog said...

Fair points you make. But as another commenter pointed out, we need someone who can lay down a philosophy and style befitting of the club. I'm not sure that O'Neil is even the kind of name that will attract the top-drawer players we need to compete with the best. Even AVB would fit the criteria, although there would be concern over the travesty that was his Chelsea tenure (admittedly there were forces at work beyond his control there).

On a different note, it would be interesting to know what the players want. Surely KD's departure would be a massive upheaval for the club, possibly more negative for the players than positive, making it temporarily difficult for any incoming manager. Whilst Hodgson wasn't right for the club, the thought of losing someone like Benitez and replacing him with Hodgson could not possibly sit well with anyone!

Septimus_severus said...

Because Kenny is British and these ex-players are his mates.

Septimus_severus said...

Jaimie, these managers are the usual suspects.
We need a different type of Manager who will bring in fresh ideas.
Liverpool were the first to appoint a Spanish Manager in the Premier League.
We should do the same again with a German Manager.
No one is watching just how strong the German league is getting.
If we leave it too late will not stand a chance against teams like Chelsea and City and Tottenham.
My shouts.....Jurgen Kopp (Dortmund)
                  Joachim LOW  (National Coach)
German Mentality based on discipline, method and technical ability.

 

Septimus_severus said...

Can anyone tell me what Martin O Neil has won in England ?
Over rated manager with a poor style of football didn't see any European Clubs coming after him when he was out of work did you ?
It's funny I've lived in Europe no one rates O Neil the only Managers they rate that have coached in England are Fergy,Wenger,Benetiz,Mourhino,Ancelotti  the rest barely register.
The problem is many fans look from the inside out but should be looking outside in.
To be clear the TOP European coaches/mangers are not in England FACT.
Liverpool need to set there ambitions a lot higher than the Paul Lambert and Martin O Neil

VormHat said...

I like AVB and Bielsa, they're actually my preferred choices (not sure of Bielsa's grasp of English or the Prem though) and Lambert and Rodgers also interest me.

I don't think that Lambert or Rodgers would suffer the same fate as Roy for a number of reasons, since it wasn't only the results that counted against Roy. He disrespected the fans and treated us like idiots, something you seem to object to enormously when Kenny does it, as well you should, but not when Roy did it. He told us that the Everton game was the best of the season and I think one of the worst examples was his insistence pre-season that we would play pass and move football on the floor only for us to play hoof ball.

Rodgers and Lambert (Rodgers in particular) play a nice brand of football which buys you time. Secondly, they're much more assertive, authorative figures than Roy. This will be manifest in dealing with the players (Roy had the same kind of problems at Inter as Liverpool, showing his flaws rather than Liverpudlian ones) and with the media, which Roy, and admittedly Kenny, have no idea how to deal with. Roy only got away with it outside Liverpool because the media is massively on his side.

The lack of experience though is a real issue. There are good things in both of their favours, which counteract this somewhat. The fact that Rodgers served an apprenticeship under Mourinho is reassuring and Lambert's playing career, in which he served his own apprenticeship under O'Neill and Hittzfeld and was a European Cup winner (not always a recipe for success but still good- think Ancelotti, Riijkard etc.).

AVB, Rodgers and Lambert would all probably be quite amenable to FSG's methods too. Whether those methods are wise is another debate but we certainly want a degree of harmony.

I like Bielsa and Van Gaal (unemployed!) but wonder how they would mesh in with FSG and the pre-existing players (Van Gaal in particular).

VormHat said...

I really like the idea of Klopp myself and think Loew could be interesting but think we would be unable to get either. I think Klopp will stay at Dortmund for the forseeable future and Loew will stay in Germany after his tenure expires, maybe taking over at Bayern or Leverkusen, where he was before.

Mali341 said...

Agree with you all the way......pretending o neil is great is the same as pretending Adam is Alonso or better

OriginalChan said...

At the end of the day, the owners made clear prior to the season that not qualifying for CL would be a 'major disappointment'. Clearly the owners felt it was a realistic objective. From the implied objective set and the form showed by the side in the second half of last season, I don't see how this season has been progress on the league front. 

YNWA96 said...

I'm glad that they'll be majorly disappointed. That they share the ultimate ambition of the club is fantastic and it's understandable that they want immediate results because of their large financial outlay. 

But the comparison of ambition between owners and supporters is not so simplistic; their ambition orientates purely around financial success whereas my hopes for the club are much more complex. That we didn't challenge strongly for 4th was disheartening but because I'm looking at the situation from a more subjective angle it's easier for me to appreciate non-result based aspects. 

My main connection to LFC is pride. Kenny Dalglish knows all about that aspect of  the club I support and how that differentiates us from other supporters/owners that judge managers purely on immediate, easily measurable success. He knows how pride and ambition was established in the club and, judging by the way we have been playing recently, he has a good model for the future. There's every chance that non-measurable AND measurable aspects of success will come under Kenny and I refuse to sacrifice the former for the latter.  

Philip Dean said...

to be fair everyone is saying the same thing that they want a manager to guarantee that we will be competing for the league. there is only one man out there that you would put your mortgage on getting us challenging for the league but most fans dont want him and that is mourinho. If we got him then you can almost book your flights to europe!!

thered_beard said...

Houllier came out and supported him in his 'progress' saying that fans should be realistic in expectations. I remember when Roy was saying that we'll we shouldn't respect anything at all, now we have a whole group of people doing it, lowering expectations, so they can keep Kenny at the job? I really think it wasn't a huge philosophy to get couple good players for the money that was spent instead of the lot we have. I also think that Rafa although never said it is the only one who thinks we should be up there competing, not bracing ourselves for the fact we might end up below seventh. Two seasons later and we have a worse team than Rafa left. There is something seriously wrong, I won't let my expectations be lowered by those lot. never

Wilson Michaelpaul said...

Its very dodgy ground to use the CC win as a barometer for progressive success , after all didnt Birmingham win it last year ? people need to put it into perspective when reading these comments by ex LFC players - life long servants of the club and very close friends of Kennys  - they are hardly likely to come out and slate him in the press are they ?

Too many are banking on the FA cup as if its already in the bag - that type of arrogance usually comes back to bite you on the arse  - lets just learn from last weeks mistakes against Wigan and QPR and try to silence the toon army  - then just look to the next game, one step at a time.

Wilson Michaelpaul said...

over the years on some LFC forums and especially RAWK the CC was usually reffered to as 'the mickey mouse cup' when UTD had won it  - funny that now we've won it suddenly its become a very important major trophy and supposedly more significant than finishing 4th .

hypocrisy stinks  - more so when its displayed by the club I love and revere.

Wilson Michaelpaul said...

Jaime its the sentimentality thats holding this club back along with a refusal to let go of the past in order to really begin again  -

Kenny should only have been a short term interim manager  - he unified the club at one of its darkest hours but I always felt he was the wrong man for the rebuilding effort thats needed ,

and fans calling him the king makes me cringe  - too much like the toon army clinging onto 'king kev' far too long  - a club of LFC's stature doesnt need to cling to past glories  - it creates its own glorious future  - thats whats needed now .

not this corny sentimentality.

Wilson Michaelpaul said...

here at least you can have debate and can voice a different opinion  - maybe you should stick to RAWK where anything other than the party line will get the ban hammer dropped on you from a great height , for what you wrote in those last two sentences you would be banned for life on there  - here jaime shows his class by allowing such dissent ( bordering on insult ) that you just displayed.

BTW - a section of the fans booed the team at the end of the Wigan game and many never gave Roy a chance from day one  - sad to say it but the 'best and most patient fans in the league' mantra is really just looking like a myth these days.

Wilson Michaelpaul said...

Its Liverpool FC  - not Kenny Dalglish FC.

too many fans are getting the two confused and thats dangerous .

Johnjoe said...

 loew would be a great choice.

VormHat said...

Whether or not Kenny is the right man for the job now, he has earned his title as 'King'.

It is important not to forget this.

gabweb said...

Carling Cup with Leicester? It was probably worth more when they won it as well. Got to another final as well. What have Leicester done since?

How many managers have won anything in England? How many have taken any team to a European final?

People rate what they know, we probably don't rate the future Ancellotis in Italy at the moment. But we don't have many here, because, after Ferguson, British managers rarely get a go at a big team. Redknapp is the first for ages and I think O'Neill has a better track record than him.

gabweb said...

Mourinho, Ancelotti, Hiddink, these guys wouldn't even look at us. Some of the other big names carry considerable risk. Rijkaard, Van Gaal, etc, who knows how they would work out. When is the last time O'Neill underachieved with a team? Benitez has, Dalglish is, most managers have. O'Neill has the right combination of experience and track record.

gabweb said...

Yeah, we've got Dalglish to do that, and how has that worked for us? What we need most is someone who can get results that will move the team up the league.

I think it might be time for the players to not get what they want and have to earn their places in the team again. I think that too many are happy to have Kenny as their manager but not enough of them are feeling the heat.

Remember Craig Gordon, the most expensive keeper in the league? He's not getting many games at Sunderland nowadays, when he isn't injured. Their keeper is playing well and the manager is not going to drop him. We could do with a bit of that mentality. James Mclean, sitting in the Sunderland reserves under Bruce, now looks like one of their best players. No favourites, no one guaranteed their place, proper competition for places.  

gabweb said...

He's a huge step up on what we have. Not even in the same ball park. Not many managers around that we can guarantee will be a step up on what we have. O'Neill's record with his last 4 clubs have all been good. None have improved since he left and all were as good as they have been in the last 25 years while he was there. What more guarantee is there than that? No one guarantees success, not even Mourinho, but if you can find a manager who has taken a team like Celtic to a European Final to lose in extra time to the next year's Champions League winners, fair enough. Taken Leicester to two finals, taken Villa as high as they've been for years, above us on one occasion, three years running and then brought Sunderland to within touching distance of us when they were about 15 points behind when he started, good luck! That looks like sustained success to me and I can't see anyone else who has done better over the last 10 years or so without having players that Ferguson, Mourinho or Wenger have had. Redknapp? Not even close.

Septimus_severus said...

Can someone please explain Aston Villa and Martin O Neil?
As I understand it he left because the owner didn't have the money to meet Oneil's Ambition.
He left them high and dry as well !
What did he achieve with Aston Villa ?
O Neil reminds me of Hodgson, great with mediocre sides and improving them but not cut out for bigger clubs.
I also remember it was O Neil that bought Downing  

gabweb said...

He left before the start of last season and look at them since. He must have had a point, because they sold Milner, which he obviously did not want. Hardly suggests an ambitious owner. I wonder if our owners will start to become like this. If you look at Villa's league position before and since he was there, that shows what he achieved.

Who knows if he never gets a chance? I think Celtic are a pretty big club, though. He can deal with expectation, Hodgson could not. Outside the top sides, his record has been the best for years now.

Maybe O'Neill knows how to motivate a player better than Dalglish? He certainly did at Celtic. Downing and Carroll are definitely playing worse for us than they did before they joined. Adam was declining at Blackpool already and i never rated Henderson. It could be that managers like O'Neill are just better man managers than our coaching staff. He must have some skill to shoot Sunderland up the league without spending anything. 

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