A few days ago, I conducted a poll on this site asking whether Steven Gerrard should retain the captaincy if he was found guilty of affray. Now that Gerrard has been cleared, the disappointing results of the poll can be revealed
1500 site visitors voted in the poll over a 2 day period. Rather worryingly, 70% of voters said Gerrard should keep the captaincy even if he was convicted.
Now, I know Gerrard was found not guilty – And that’s great – but it’s the principle here that I find disturbing: If he had been convicted of what basically amounts to a violent crime, the majority of fans voting condone the behaviour and would be happy for Gerrard to continue as the main ambassador for the club.
Maybe it’s just me, but I find this quite worrying. What does such a result say about Liverpool fans? The cult of the celebrity footballer is clearly so far out of control that star-struck fans who glorify and deify players are willing to overlook practically anything if it gets in the way of their idolatry.
Such ‘fans’ obviously do not care about the image and reputation of the club, or how having a convicted criminal as a figurehead would send out the wrong message to young, impressionable fans.
Of course, we all know that rampaging hypocrisy is the centre of this entire issue. Gerrard is given a pass because he is a popular player and a key part of the team. If, say, Ryan Babel, Andrea Dossena or – god help us – Charles Itandje had been involved instead, the very same Liverpool fans would be calling for their heads, not supporting them to the hilt.
A prime example of this came in the Itandje incident in April 2009, where he was vilified and demonised after his conduct during the Hillsborough memorial service.
The reaction from Liverpool fans was laughably disproportionate in my opinion, with lots of fan forums across the net attacking the player in the most vile and personal manner imaginable.
Itandje made a small mistake; he did not deliberately intend to disrespect the families of the Hillsborough dead. This did not matter to rabid supporters though, who proceeded to gleefully assassinate the player's character, with much of their vitriol (probably) subconsciously motivated by latent xenophobia.
If it was Gerrard who smirked during the service, how would fans have reacted? Would they have called for him to be kicked out the club? Would he have been attacked and reviled across the net on fan forums? I would argue - in all probability - no. The fans probably have been rationalising and justifying his actions, just like they have been during the Lounge Inn incident, which was arguably far worse.
Liverpool fans were willing to condone Gerrard’s actions in this instance, but where does it end? What needs to happen before fans set aside their sycophantic idolatry and collectively start putting the club before the individual? What exactly are Liverpool fans willing to condone to ensure their idols remain untarnished?
In this case, the fans have once again reaffirmed that Steven Gerrard is bigger than the club. They were willing to ignore a conviction for a violent criminal offence just so they could have the player they love so much continue on as the club captain.
And these are the very same fans who were baying for Joey Barton's blood when he was charged with affray in 2008, for which he was later jailed.
As I said, rampaging hypocrisy.
NB. The article explores the fan response to the following question: If a Liverpool captain is convicted of a crime of physical violence, should he retain the captaincy? My personal feelings on whether the Gerrard verdict was accurate or not has no bearing on the legitimacy of the above question.
1500 site visitors voted in the poll over a 2 day period. Rather worryingly, 70% of voters said Gerrard should keep the captaincy even if he was convicted.
Now, I know Gerrard was found not guilty – And that’s great – but it’s the principle here that I find disturbing: If he had been convicted of what basically amounts to a violent crime, the majority of fans voting condone the behaviour and would be happy for Gerrard to continue as the main ambassador for the club.
Maybe it’s just me, but I find this quite worrying. What does such a result say about Liverpool fans? The cult of the celebrity footballer is clearly so far out of control that star-struck fans who glorify and deify players are willing to overlook practically anything if it gets in the way of their idolatry.
Such ‘fans’ obviously do not care about the image and reputation of the club, or how having a convicted criminal as a figurehead would send out the wrong message to young, impressionable fans.
Of course, we all know that rampaging hypocrisy is the centre of this entire issue. Gerrard is given a pass because he is a popular player and a key part of the team. If, say, Ryan Babel, Andrea Dossena or – god help us – Charles Itandje had been involved instead, the very same Liverpool fans would be calling for their heads, not supporting them to the hilt.
A prime example of this came in the Itandje incident in April 2009, where he was vilified and demonised after his conduct during the Hillsborough memorial service.
The reaction from Liverpool fans was laughably disproportionate in my opinion, with lots of fan forums across the net attacking the player in the most vile and personal manner imaginable.
Itandje made a small mistake; he did not deliberately intend to disrespect the families of the Hillsborough dead. This did not matter to rabid supporters though, who proceeded to gleefully assassinate the player's character, with much of their vitriol (probably) subconsciously motivated by latent xenophobia.
If it was Gerrard who smirked during the service, how would fans have reacted? Would they have called for him to be kicked out the club? Would he have been attacked and reviled across the net on fan forums? I would argue - in all probability - no. The fans probably have been rationalising and justifying his actions, just like they have been during the Lounge Inn incident, which was arguably far worse.
Liverpool fans were willing to condone Gerrard’s actions in this instance, but where does it end? What needs to happen before fans set aside their sycophantic idolatry and collectively start putting the club before the individual? What exactly are Liverpool fans willing to condone to ensure their idols remain untarnished?
In this case, the fans have once again reaffirmed that Steven Gerrard is bigger than the club. They were willing to ignore a conviction for a violent criminal offence just so they could have the player they love so much continue on as the club captain.
And these are the very same fans who were baying for Joey Barton's blood when he was charged with affray in 2008, for which he was later jailed.
As I said, rampaging hypocrisy.
NB. The article explores the fan response to the following question: If a Liverpool captain is convicted of a crime of physical violence, should he retain the captaincy? My personal feelings on whether the Gerrard verdict was accurate or not has no bearing on the legitimacy of the above question.
--------------
128 COMMENTS:
tbh, Steven Gerrard must get given crap by these type all the time do you really blame him for hitting out on 1 occasion especially after he had been drinking. Why should 1 incident of this nature blemish an extremely proffesional career. I say congratulations Mr Gerrard most people probably would of done the same thing.
Gerrard has a responsibility to behave in a professional manner at all times, especially since he has the privilege of captaining the club. He is paid ridiculously well not not give in to provocation. In any event, you are assuming he was given 'crap' - it seems more likely that Mr Bigshot had his ego damaged and wanted revenege.
Anyway - this issue is not about Steven Gerrard per se, it's about the fans' willingness to condone the criminal behaviour of their favourite players.
We all know what he did. There's no doubt he hit someone, and we know why he said he did it. Why therefore does it make any difference whether he was found innocent or guilty? The knife-edge that is the Law applied to one incident doesn't define someone's character.
..and we adore and love Gerrard more..
I think incidents, like the one of Gerrard, are happening all the time being. The problem was that Gerrard is a star that shines quite a lot. What would have happened if the incident happened to me, somebody you don't know? Simply nothing cause i am no one but Gerrard is a star as i said and stars always shine. You'll never walk alone. From Gozo Malta.
Eric Cantona did worse on live TV...isn't he still an ambassador of the beautiful game?
Totally agree! Carra should get the captaincy. Gerrard's behaviour was disgraceful. He's a role model for a lot of youngsters.
Gerrard is a 'star that shines'? You are 'no one but Gerrard is a star'. Are you listening to yourself?! Gerrard is human being like everyone else. He's only a 'star' because millions of people like you (with an apparent inferiority complex) elevate him to godlike status with incessant fawning and hero worship.
You're using Cantona as a comparison?!
1. Was Cantona Captain of Man United? No.
2. Was Cantona punished for what he did? Yes.
3. If Cantona WAS captain of UNited, would he have retained the captaincy after an 8 month ban? I think not.
Shut up Jaimie. Haven't you ever had an argument. As you said then, "Gerrard is human being like everyone else", therefore why shouldn't he have been treated like others? Why was Gerrard on all newspapers and tvs?
Eric Cantona: two wrongs doesn't make a right, yes, but how many fans actually care? LFC must remain strong hence Gerrard needs to be around. Moreover, Gerrard is family. I would still consider my father the leader of my family even if he were to be found guilty in a club brawl. Heck, he would be my hero if he whacked the daylights out of someone as irritating as some MU fans...
dont you think its a bit different?
insulting thousands of innocent people who died, and jus thumping some wanker in the bar?
maybeee thats why the outcome is different you idiot!
Listen man, whether you like it or not, Gerrard is still our captain. If you don't like the idea just..... Sorry man. That's all
Is anyone twisting Gerrard's arm to be paid £100k a week to captain the greatest football club in the world?
Gerrard is in a privileged position and the stupendous amounts of money he earns compensate him for being in the public eye.
If he can't hack it and can't conduct himself in the right way then he should step aside and let someone else do the job.
And let's not forget Gerrard was convicted of drink driving earlier in his career, so it's not like it's the first time.
Yes, he's only human, but having considered the alleged facts, was the situation so serious that Gerrard had no option but to attack this guy?!
No. If it was actually self-defence and McGhee had attacked Gerrard, then it would be a different story.
Why not Cantona? let's not start with the 'if's. Who are we to say that he would not have been retained as captain if he were the captain before the ban? Most people would have given a second chance to a great player like him. Or maybe Jaimie doesn't believe in second chances. Hey, let's put the big scarlet letter on the forehead of someone even though that someone deserves some compassion after a stupid thing like a club brawl.
Anon - how did Itandje insult 'thousands of innocent people who died?' What are you on about?!
To be honest, this is an uncomfortable, yet very true article. I didn't want to read something like it, but I think it says more about our society than Liverpool supporters opinions that we wanted him to still be the captain. I think the fact that we probably all have a mate who would, or would have done the same our selves makes it easier to forgive. The fact that other club captains (bar Giggs) probably would've done the same further highlights this
What did you think your poll was going to prove??
If the result was Gerrard should lose the captaincy you would've bashed him with that - instead you bash everyone for having a different opinion to yours and then continue to criticise Gerrard anyway...
Suggest your next poll just has "yes" and "yes" as the available choices...or just dont bother with this whole pointless excercise...sheesh
Anon - I see your points, but how can you reconcile the treatment meted out to Itandje with your comments about second chances? Has any Liverpool fan given him a second chance after his comparatively minor offence? Not as far as I can see.
You talk about second chances, but I bet if it was a player you dislike who was involved in the Loung Inn incident, you'd have a completely different view. but hey, that's human nature. We give second chances to those we like and mercilessly denigrate those we despise.
Jaimie, Jaimie, Jaimie yours is only jeolousy. So shut up. You weren't present during the time of incident, so just shut up. Gerrard will be our captain in the following weeks for '09-'10 league wheather you like it or not.
Wow! Jaimie thinks the jury and the judge were not impartial in the verdict of the case. I was not there in the club, so I believe the court when it says Gerrard is NOT GUILTY. Seriously, he was found 'not guilty'. So let's forget about these 'what if's and root for one of the greatest footballer of our time. For God's sake...it was just a small club brawl..some youngsters around the world get involved in worse situations than that.
I knew before I even posted the poll that the majority of fans would vote for Gerrard to be retained as captain if he was convicted. I wanted to highlight the ongoing hypocrisy of Liverpool fans because it is something I hate.
If the result had turned out to be Gerrard to lose the captaincy, I wouldn't have pursued it further because there would be no point. And I wouldn't have bashed Gerrard over it. The proof of this is the fact that I haven't posted a single thing about the Lounge Inn incident since it happen last year. The only thing I've written about it is the Poll post, and as I said above, the reason for that was to expose the fans, not Gerrard.
I have posted only five comments as anon...just in case Jaimie thinks tehy are from one single source..
Khan, Malaysia
Predictably, people are twisting this:
1. I am not unhappy that Gerrard is still captain. I don't have a problem with him being captain.
2. The whole exercise was to see how fans would react IF Gerrard was convicted. IF. You understand the meaning of IF, don't you?
3. This has nothing to do with Gerrard really; it could have been any Liverpool captain; it just s happens that at this moment, Gerrard is the captain and he was involved in the incident.
To put it in general terms, the question was simply this:
Q. If a Liverpool captain is convicted of a crime of physical violence, should he retain the captaincy?
..there is tad of hypocrisy in all of us, including you Jaimie. Only, the difference is some of us like LFC to remain as strong as possible with Gerrard at the helm. No arguments about that.
Khan
Khan - I agree that we are all prone to hypocrisy sometimes, it's just (unfortunately) human nature.
Your point about 'LFC remaining strong with Gerrard at the helm' is quite troubling though.
Where do you draw the line? Hit and Run? Murder? Drug dealing? How much do you ignore or condone so the club can remain strong on the field? Should you just ignore all bad behaviour just because a player is important to the team?!
Similarly, if a player is not as good as Gerrard, is he therefore expendable and not worthy of such a high level of support?
Q. If a Liverpool captain is convicted of a crime of physical violence, should he retain the captaincy?
I would say yes, because it was just a club brawl..not as if Gerrard is a big time head honcho of a gangster with a mile long history of gangsterism. IF the verdict had been 'guilty', he can still remain as captain because I am sure he would have given a statement like 'sorry, bla bla bla..I lost my head..bla bla bla..you kids, do not become like me..stay away from those evil clubs..bla bla..become like Beckham bla bla in the Unites States bla bla and make sure you remain a hypocrite like all of us bla bla'
The line is drawn somewhere I am sure..but not at getting involved in a club brawl.
Khan
I think your comments are a total disgrace and you should hang your head in shame as a Liverpool supporter. As captain of Liverpool Steven Gerrard deserved our support and you have to take into context the incident that occured. As a rate payer in Liverpool I am appaled that the Police and CPS took this to court in the first place, the cost of the case going to CC will be massive and in my opinion it was onlky taken to court because it was Steve who was involved. If you go to Liverpool or any other City Centre tonight you will see similar incidents occur will they go to CC? no, in every school yard in every schoolthese incidents take place should all the kids go to CC? no. This incident cannot be compared to what Barton did in any shape or form. I bet you a pound to a penny that the alleged victim in all this will sell his stroy to a National or a Sunday tabloid and then you will see the real reason why this went to court. Steve G can hold his head high Jamie but I am afraid after this article you cannot do the same Jamie.........hang you head in shame. Red Alert
Jaimie would be frightened to get involved in a fight. Because Gerrard had guts, he hates him and wants him kicked out.
Where does it say that Gerrard was 'completely unprovoked'? Maybe the Hansard could throw some light on what really happened. Maybe it would not. So, please do not make things up Jaimie if you are in the dark as many of us are, that statement of yours deserves a Scarlet Letter.
A guy hits a red traffic lights. His action, dangerous, could have killed someone. Maybe it did give someone a heart-jerk that eventually lead to a fatal heart attack two years from the day of the incident. Take away his license now. Do not allow him to ever drive again.
Khan
I vote for Red Alert comments \o/
Khan
captain isnt the main ambasator. HE is captain for what he does on the pitch and for the team mates out there with him, Now Daglish is the ambastor
Based on the evidence given in court and the CCTV footage, Gerrard was not provoked. There was definitely no physical provocation, as it was McGhee who was elbowed in the face before being hit by Gerrard. Verbal provocation? I guess it's a matter of personal opinion. Gerrard approached McGhee twice of his own volition, did he not? Did he need to go back the second time? No. By Gerrars's own admission, he went back that second time to enquire what McGhee's problem was. Why do this? He should have just let it go.
One final thing Jamie. I think Liverpool-Kop.com © 2007-09 should take your job of for what you are saying. You're not loyal.
Red Alert - how do you know all these incidents you speak of across the UK will not go to court? Is that not just a sweeping, unfounded generalisation?
Why are you appalled this went to court? Gerrard did, in fact, punch McGhee. Gerrard's friend did, in fact, elbow McGhee in the face. Are these not criminal acts? Or should they just be ignored?
How is the Joey Barton incident different to this incident? Both players were charged with affray, so unless there are two different affray laws (which there aren't), they are markedly similar.
And what difference does it make if McGhee sells his story (I bet he won't by the way). It doesn't change the fact that some moron elbowed him in the face.
And sorry to disappoint you, but I won't be hanging my head in shame.
@Anon - considering I own and run this site, I don't think I'm going to be firing myself :-)
I am loyal to Liverpool FC, not Steven Gerrard FC, Rafa Benitez FC or anyone-else FC.
Gerrard was provoked, that's my personal opinion. So, please respect that. Wasn't Kenny Dalglish there too? How about another poll: Should King Kenny remain as the Ambassador of LFC?
Khan
What has Kenny Dalglish got to do with anything? Did Dalglish get involved in a drunken brawl? No.
If you feel Gerrard was provoked, then fair enough.
Maybe he should have let it go. But the fact he didn't just makes him human and not a criminal. Just accept the court decision Jamie. After all, you would have got all righteous against him if he'd lost.
Hey, maybe King Kenny was behind all this? Horror! Horror! Geez.. Let's speculate now, since it is Speculation Day.
Khan
I have accepted the court decision - as I said earlier, the point of this whole exercise was to expose the hypocrisy of Liverpool fans.
And if Gerrard had been convicted, I would not have written anything about it. That's not my style. What would be the point? My view on the issue is already clear through the poll I posted, i.e. A Liverpool captain convicted of crime of physical violence should not retain the captaincy.
The proof of the above is (as I indicated earlier) the fact that I have not written a thing about this incident ever since it happened.
If I wanted to stick the knife in I could have been writing regular articles criticising Gerrard over the incident, but I didn't.
What do you mean? You do stick the knife into Gerrard every chance you get. Everyone who visits your site knows that.
Okay Jaimie, but you have (from my understanding):
1. suggested that Gerrard is actually guilty when the courts has said he is not.
2. suggested that Gerrard doesn't deserve to be the captain of LFC after that incident
3. suggested the jury and the judge came to a wrong decision i.e. CC is biased
4. suggested that Gerrard is a bad example to kids around the world
5. suggested that most fans are hypocrites
6. suggested that most fans idolise Gerrard more than the club (as opposed to your opposite stand)
7. suggested that it is okay that LFC becomes weaker next season and it is okay that we do not win anything again since the chances is lesser without Gerrard
8. suggested that we continue to demonise Gerrard after that 'small' incident
Anyways, those might not be verbatim/paraphrase of what you actually said, but I understood it that way.
LOL..there are not many die-hard fans of LFC who would agree with you.
Khan
I do not stick the knife into Gerrard every chance I get. If that was the case, why have I not been criticising him over the Lounge Inn incident over the last 8 months?
The last time I was critical of him was in February 2009, and that was for diving:
Gerrard still a diver
My most recent article about him (May 09) was positive and complimentary:
Gerrard-Torres partnership stats
Most of us only really found out what happened in the Lounge Inn this last week.
Khan: I have not suggested any of the following:
1. suggested that Gerrard is actually guilty when the courts has said he is not.
My view is that he did not act in self-defence.
2. suggested that Gerrard doesn't deserve to be the captain of LFC after that incident
No. Completely wrong. I said that IF HE WAS FOUND GUILTY he should not remain as captain. That goes for any player, not just Gerrard.
3. suggested the jury and the judge came to a wrong decision i.e. CC is biased
No. I did not suggest bias at all. That is a spurious inference.
4. suggested that Gerrard is a bad example to kids around the world
NO. If someone who had been convicted of a crime of physical violence was allowed to remain as captain then that would be a bad example to kids who look up to footballers.
5. suggested that most fans are hypocrites
Yes, because in my experience, they are.
6. suggested that most fans idolise Gerrard more than the club (as opposed to your opposite stand)
Yes, because that is true.
7. suggested that it is okay that LFC becomes weaker next season and it is okay that we do not win anything again since the chances is lesser without Gerrard.
Absolute rubbish! You've just taken my words and twisted them beyond recognition.
8. suggested that we continue to demonise Gerrard after that 'small' incident
Utter nonsense. Please post the lines from any of my replies that suggest that.
Nice mangling of my opinions :-)
To say that Liverpool fans should have wanted Steven Gerrard's captaincy stripped from him is a little ridiculous I must say. Yes we all know what happened and the details of the incident, and there is no doubt that Steven hit the man. But how can 1 incident all be it a serious one tarnish an incredibly professional career. One incident which also involved alcohol should not make us as fans question his character. You need a professional character to be the captain of the biggest club in the world which Stevie clearly still has. And to even mention the incident of Joey Barton in the same article as this completely contradicted what you were trying to say about fans condoning bad behavior. Joey's incident was far worse then Steven's and took the charge of affray to a whole other level. Steven struck the man in what he believed was self defence, Joey struck his victim 20 times taking the assault to en extreme level of violence. No one would ever condone such a violent action no matter who it was in that case so no wonder we were baying for his blood. So to question really shouldn't be about whether us fans condone what was done based on wanting to keep our idol "Steven" from being tarnished by a crime, it should be about what we as people see to be violent which should question character and just a simple bar fight which shouldn't.
If he did not act in self-defence (as you suggest), the very reason the court allowed him to walk, then did you not suggest what I 'mangled'? Gerrard was found not guilty because he was deemed as defensing his self. So, you do actually suggest that he is guilty, the jury and judge were wrong, etc
Yes, I may be a 'dog' who mangles wildly, but at least I am the dog in red. So, that makes it okay for me.
Since I did not really understand your opinions, it is either because my command of the language is poor or you need to beef up your style of writing so that people like me can fully understand it.
Khan
Anyone who visits this site will know that articles with a negative slant account for about 70% of output. When it comes to Gerrard, however, that percentage goes up to around 90%
What's all this 'dog' business? I did not call you a dog.
I think it's clear that you twisted my words, and it has nothing to do with your command of the language, which to me looks fine.
I don't believe Gerrard acted in self defence; this does not mean the jury was biased in finding him not guilty; they just gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Jurys are not infallible.
Yeah I totally agree with Jamie. If you watch the video you can see that:
1. Gerrard is a THUG
2. His friend is also a THUG
3. The guy that got hit did not do anything to make Gerrard feel 'i have to defend myself'
4. Gerrard is a THUG
@4:28pm,
1. Cantona was punished because he was found guilty wasn't he?
2. Cantona wasn't the captain when the incident occurred but he was made captain for the 1996-97 season (after the incident).
3. "If Cantona WAS captain of United, would he have retained the captaincy after an 8 month ban? I think not"
What makes you think so? What's the point voicing your opinion on something that has never occurred.
You mentioned earlier we are all prone to hypocrisy which means including you Kanwar so what's your aim in exposing the hypocrisy of Liverpool fans? What would you gain? Aren't you a Liverpool fan & aren't you prone to hypocrisy as you mentioned earlier?
@Anon - Since I began this site I have posted 240 articles, only 43 of which are specifically about Gerrard. Thus, approximately 17% of my articles are critical of Gerrard. I think you may need to revise your inflated 90% figure ;-)
Gerrard being found not guilty leaves a bad taste in my mouth after seeing the CCTV footage. Should he still be Captain? Technically he has done nothing wrong in the eyes of the Law so everything carries on as normal, but should a Liverpool Captain be out to all hours drinking, getting involved in drunken brawls and breaking traffic laws? I think not, but obviously many don't judging by the Poll results. :-(
The perceived leader of the team (any team, but we're interested in Liverpool here) should be beyond reproach, yes he is human, but he is a role model to many kids and should act accordingly imho.
Everybody is getting at Jaimie for running the Poll and writing the article for somehow trying to undermine the spirit or belief of/in the team, but what damage could Gerrard getting stuck in jail have done to our chances this season? And Gerrard should keep that in mind as he goes about in his life, because that is what he is being paid such large amounts of money to do, win for Liverpool. He can't do that from a jail cell.
Once he retires he can do what he wants, but I doubt he'll be as lucky in his court dealings should he end up there after he retires. ;-)
Ian.
5. suggested that most fans are hypocrites
Yes, because in my experience, they are.
6. suggested that most fans idolise Gerrard more than the club (as opposed to your opposite stand)
Yes, because that is true.
Care to back those claims? Any statistics? You circle of friends only do not count. LFC fans are scattered all around the world. Today, LFC will be playing Singapore. The thousands of fans from Singapore and the neighbouring countries will be watching the game because they love and idolise LFC, not certain individuals only.
Anyways, what is your version of fans putting players first before the club? Do you mean most fans will cease to support LFC if Gerrard or Torres leave the club and start supporting new club/s they will be playing at?
Khan
@Anon - re Cantona. Good point about him being made captain after the kung-fu incident. One thing's for sure though, Cantona suffered far more provocation that Gerrard. Come to think of it, Cantona should have claimed self-defence. It worked for Gerrard ;-D
James from the poll again,
Steven Gerrard is a hero and inspiration to many, we're grateful for what he does, what he brings to the club and what he has achieved with us. He has given 22 years (youth and senior) to the club. He is english, he is scouse, he is one of us! You would be so brash to strip him of his captaincy would you?
as i said in the previous article, any argument of 'oh if it was dossena, traore or itandje you would want their heads' is weak.
if they'd done enough to be captain then no i wouldn't want to get rid of them.
We stand by our leaders, if we didn't, then we'd be in a hell of a mess!
I know Kanwar is probably a Manc, and not really a Liverpool fan...but he has a point in saying that Stevie was very lucky to get away with it - in my eyes, he was guilty. He deserves some criticism from Liverpool fans. But, I think he has learnt a valuable lesson and we won't see him in a similar situation again. He seemed contrite, and on the whole, we know him to be of good character. He is no Lee Bowyer. I think Liverpool fans who don't accept he was lucky are hypocrites. At the same time, Kanwar clearly has it in for Gerrard and his criticism of fans is over the top - most fans of any club would respond the same way if their star player landed up in a similar situationb because most fans are irrationally loyal. Kanwar is simply using this as an opportunity to have a go at Liverpool fans, which is wrong.
For you to associate itandje's case with gerrard's shows your immaturity. Itandje's act was deemed by many to be insulting to the many families who lost their loved ones. (if u cant understand why that was so, try dancing at someone's funeral and see what happens). It was one of the darkest periods of LFC which deeply affected many associated with the club. Gerrard's case (while he was wrong to punch that guy, whether provoked or not) was a personal case between him and the "victim".
Anon - the reaction to Itandje's 'act' was massively over the top. Have you viewed the video footage? Hardly worthy of the massive witch hunt that followed. The demonisation of the player as some kind of enemy of Liverpool was pathetic and embarrasing. There was no deliberate intent on Itandje's part; he was stupid, yes, but I have no doubt that if it was Gerrard, Carragher or Torres who made a similar mistake, you and countless other fans would just forget it, or rationalise it.
And as I intimated in the article, the savage reaction towards Itandje was, in my view, motivated by latent xenophobia and in some cases, racism. You just had to see some of the stuff written on Liverpool fan forums to see that.
i have seen the footage but not the comments. IMHO while his actions may have been meant to be cheeky, taken in the whole context and in the circumstances, it was insulting. He definitely wld have known the sensitivity surrounding the events and for him to do what he did showed a lack of maturity and common sense. In contrast, gerrard reacted on the spur of the moment and under the influence of alcohol so u wld see why some can see the lighter of gerrard's case. I cant comment on the racism bit cos i didnt read the comments but i wun deny that there will be ppl posting comments which are racially charged (a result of technology allowing ppl to hide behind their pc/laptop posting irresponsible comments and not being accountable)
You keep assuming if this if that, I think not, I have no doubt etc. All these words are on something which has never occurred. For example, the Itandje's incident, "if it was Gerrard, Carragher or Torres..blah..blah..blah" you have no doubt that the fans would just forget it...blah blah blah. No doubt? How can you prove that we would just forget it? Is that not just your assumption?
I'm still baffled as to what is your objective in exposing the hypocrisy of Liverpool fans?
Same person as Anon 6:19
Hmmm is Ferdinand not the Uts Captain despite him being banned for drug offences?
Two words - Roy Keane, beat up women in clubs, ratned and raved at refs, deliberately injured fellow professionals. Yet was still lauded not only by man utd fans but football fans in general. I await your response.
Anon - what's your point?
Let's take a look (thanks Bikram for compiling these in the other thread!) John Terry was caught urinating in a club; making fun of American tourists right after 9/11, and making xenophobic remarks?
Roy Keane deliberately tried to injure Alf-Inge Haaland, as well as the other things mentioned above.
Tony Adams went to prison for drink driving.
Rio Ferdinand missed a drugs test and was banned for 8 months.
The fact that players like Ferdinand, Terry et al are/were captains of their clubs despite their behaviour is just another example of how modern football has become a morally ambivalent cesspool.
Clubs and fans only care about one thing: Money and winning trophies. Both clubs and fans will do anything to achieve either or both of those things, including overlooking criminal acts and how they reflect on the club.
End of the day Gerrard is human - all humans make mistakes that can be forgiven.
He gets stick all the time when out and is 99% professional. this is the 1% unfortunately.
Jaime sounds like you dont like the fact he gets paid well.. the thing is he does his job on the pitch very well and conducts himself well at all times.
Im 100% sure this type of thing wont happen again until he retires.
He is our captain.. A family member and we all stick by him YNWA
Gerrard was not convicted so that ends the matter. But for argument sake, why should one stray incident be blown out of proportion and someone be stripped of captaincy? He still is a great role mode to numerous youngsters who dream of becoming a footballer. He has become one of the world's supreme midfielder through dedication and hard work. He serves the club with compassion so we fans adore him and support him. I am in no way supporting what he did, but I am realistic enough to think after all he is only human and can make mistakes.
At the end of the day what does it matter - he was proved innocent unlike Cantona and Barton.
If SG hadn't been there and the same incident had happened this wouldn't have even got to court, it was handbags - they 'victim' wanted money and publicity...end of.
Just checkig but Gerrard was found not guilty....wasnt he ??? Kanwar you should be writing for the daily mail with this sort of article.
Jaimie, Cantona was punished by the FA/Man U for his on-field behavior. Gerrard did nothing wrong on the field, it was purely a matter in the court, and there is nothing wrong with fans saying that his off the field behavior shouldn't affect his position with the club, especially when its something totally unrelated to Liverpool. Its not like he's come out and criticized the best manager in the world, Rafa Benitez, or any of his teammates, or is an alcoholic.
And how dare you compare him to Itjande, a man who offended the families of the 96 by laughing and behaving like an absolute tool at a memorial. Of course, that doesn't matter to you. As long as its not Rafa or Gerrard.
Oh, and by the way, I'm sure you'll be glad to know that I came to this page from RepublikOfMancunia.
I have the greatest respect for Steven Gerrard, but have reckoned for quite some time that Jamie Carragher should be captain, but this is nothing to do with the recent incident.
Let's get something into context. For affray to be proven, it would have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, that it was the blows delivered by Gerrard that injured McGhee. This would have been almost impossible to prove as McGhee had already been hit by someone else.
On this basis, it is entirely possible that an unsound verdict against Gerrard could have been the outcome and when Stevie says that he believed he was about to be hit, so he struck first, I believe him. (Some would call it a kill or be killed reflex)
A charge of common assault would have had more chance of bringing a conviction and I believe that the Police and CPS were either overly ambitious or aggressive in attempting to get affray to stick.
What about the provocation angle? Has no one noticed that Liverpool were ahead of their arch rivals when this incident occurred? Why hasn't anyone suggested that this whole affair was a deliberate attempt to derail Liverpool's title challenge last year?
I personally believe that McGhee knew what he was doing and was trying to press Gerrard's buttons. I don't think that Stevie was right to respond as he did, but understand why he did it and I also wouldn't take away his captaincy for these reasons.
That doesn't mean that I idolise Gerrard in any way and am being a hypocrite. I've been a Liverpool fan since 1975 and don't idolise any individual player. I just think the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.
Let's not forget that the Judge directed the jury of twelve men and women and that these twelve unanimously agreed with Gerrard's version of events, or were sufficiently unconvinced by the prosecution arguments to convict.
By saying that we all (or 70% of us) blindly idolise Gerrard more than LFC to the point where we accept any behaviour in the name of the club's success, is a huge insult. (Of the same level in you not understanding the feelings that fans have over the Itandje incident)
IMHO LFC would do better this season to take the responsibility for captaining the team away from Stevie and giving it to Jamie, so that Stevie can be free to do his best near the front unfettered, but not for the reasons you would propose.
I believe Gerrard is a genuine and fairly humble bloke, who made a small error and most fans see it this way too and are not as hypocritical as you suggest.
Why don't you run some more productive polls e.g. Vote yes or no if you want Alonso/Mascherano to stay and encourage such large yes votes that these equally essential players want to stay with us this season and beyond?
Regards
Pigman
Teignmouth
Bikram - like most people it seems, you are exaggerating about Itandje for some reason. He made a mistake, yes, but it was not intentional. It doesn't make him the devil, and it certainly doesn't deserve the level of revulsion displayed by many Liverpool fans.
And what exactly is your point about Republik of Mancunia? Don't tell me you're another one those people who actually believes that I run that site?!
Scott runs RoM, and he's a very good guy. Just because we're rivals doesn't mean we need to act like thugs over it. Rival fans can actually be on friendly terms.
And the idea that I'm actually a Man United fan who runs this Liverpool site on the side is, quite frankly, idiotic. Who has time for such a ridiculous endeavour?! If people want to think that then they're welcome, but anyone with the slightest sense knows it's nonsense.
Pigman - thanks for your comments. I understand the feelings fans over the Itandje Hillsborough incident, but I feel that the incident was completely blown out of proportion, and that the fact it was Itandje - a comparatively unpopular player - is part of the reason.
I could understand the reaction if Itandje's behaviour was deliberately callous, unfeeling, offensive or indeed sustained (!) but it wasn't. The 'Act' everyone refers to lasted literally 2 seconds and made no difference to anyone or anything. If it hadn't been captured on film, no one would have ever known about it.
As soon as the story broke, everyone jumped on the 'Itandje is the devil' bandwagon. He was basically ostracised by the fanbase in a massively disproportionate outpouring of revulsion.
What motivates that? In my view, it has nothing to do with Hillsborough and everything to do with opportunist fans taking the chance to slag off one of the club's least popular players.
We all know that if it was Carragher, Gerrard, Torres or any other popular player, the incident would in all probability have been forgotten or justified very quickly.
Itandje was insensitive and deserved to be disciplined by the club, but the fan reaction was out of order, and especially ironic (and hypocritical) in light of the 'You'll Never Walk Alone' philosophy of LFC, which so many fans spout as their mantra of support for players when the chips are down. Where was that support for Itandje? In fact, where was the attempt to at least be fair and not blow everything out of proportion?
The way the incident was reported (and latched onto by fans) was also out of order. The overly emotive language; the blatant inaccuracy, i.e. some newspapers reported that Itandje was 'laughing' during the event, which is blatantly untrue.
The on fan forums across the net, Liverpool 'fans' parrot this nonsense, even though they've seen the footage and know it's not true, but because of their irrational dislike of the player, they don't care about the inaccuracy.
The media talked about Charles Itandje's 'shame' over this affair, bit it is Liverpool fans who condemned him in such a personal, overbearing manner who should feel shame.
"We all know that if it was Carragher, Gerrard, Torres or any unpopular player, the incident would all in probability have been forgotten or justified very quickly."
We all know? WE? How did you come up with that assumption? Until Carragher, Gerrard, Torres or any unpopular player does an Itandje we WON'T know!
Its called supporting our captain
Jaimie, I did not imply that you were a Man Utd fan, and I don't think that anyone who slags off Stevie or The-Best-Manager-In-The-World is a Manc. I personally have a lot of complaints against the former, including his lack of discipline, his selfishness and his lack of intelligence. And I have never said that you can't be friends with rival fans. My best friends are Chelsea and Man U fans.
However, the very fact that your website was used as one of the links in another blog where the commenters say the worst things about Gerrard & his family, Liverpool, Hillsborough even, is a disgrace.
And tell me something else, was Cantona sent to prison for even a day for his crime which everyone in the world saw? There wasn't even a court case, as there is with Stevie. Do you know why? Because it happened in the football ground, and was thus dealt with, not by the police, but the FA and Man U. However, you completely choose to ignore that, and say we should use Cantona's case to judge Stevie despite the fact that Stevie was not representing, or had anything to do with Liverpool, or football, at the time of his offence.
As for Itjande, it was not unintentional, does he have no control over himself, or did he not think it was a memorial service, and therefore he had to behave in a certain manner. Now I've never been to France, but I don't think they behave like tools at their memorial services, so its not a thing of "Oh, I didn't know".
I can't speak for other Liverpool fans, but I think he should have been fined, and thats it. He made a mistake, apologized, and we should leave it at that.
The difference between him and Stevie again, is that Stevie never once offended the club, its traditions, or its fans.
What a complete nonsense article. This whole mess should never have ended up in court, and never would have if it wasn't Steven Gerrard. And EVERYONE knows that. Do I wish he had just walked away? Sure. But do I think what happened makes him a bad person and an incompetent captain? Hell no! All the negative nancys will jump all over this, but what matters is that they DON'T matter. Gerrard is innocent, life moves on, the end.
Oh, and by the way, getting back to RoM, you also posted a link to their article of how Man U compare to Liverpool when you talk about developing English players.
Tell me something, which of the following players did Man U develop?
Rooney, Ferdinand, Carrick, Hargreaves.
The only English players (of quality) that they've developed are Scholes (who no longer plays for England), Neville (who is a really overrated right back, and quite frankly, a real coward - he celebrates in front of the Liverpool fans when Man U score in the 90th, thus leaving Liverpool no chance of getting back, and could not defend himself against Patrick Vieira, what a pussy!), and David Beckham, who was responsible in England going out of World Cup 1998, and Euro 2004. You could include Nicky Butt in that list as well.
Now compare that to Liverpool, who have, despite fewer resources, developed Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher, Scott Carson, Steve McManaman and Robbie Fowler in the same amount of time.
If you want to talk about currently, Liverpool are also in the process of developing Spearing, Kelly, Darby (don't know if he's English or Irish), while Man U have Welbeck & a few others.
Scott, however, who represents everything you despise in a fan because of his bias, but which you choose to ignore because you have to be "critically realistic", presents a completely different picture, and puts it as if Man U have made Carrick and Hargreaves and Rio and Rooney.
If any one team should take any credit for england's talent, it is West Ham, who developed Ferdinand, Lampard, Carrick, Joe Cole etc.
Bikram - I do not 'slag off' Gerrard or Benitez. There is a difference between being critical and slagging someone off. Show me one example - just one - of where I have ever been personal about either person and/or denigrated either in a derogatory fashion.
And re RoM - Scott cannot be held responsible for random, anonymous people leaving comments on his site. This is the internet! Policing comments is extremely time consuming. It doesn't mean he condones what they're saying, and I know he doesn't anyway. There are idiots leaving stupid comments allover the place, whether it's there, the BBC website, The Guardian, Independent, whatever.
Re Cantona - Sorry Bikram, but you're wrong. Cantona did go to Court. He was sentenced to two weeks in prison for assault but that was changed on appeal to community service. And I did not say we should use Cantona's situation in judging Gerrard. As I've repeated countless times, this issue is not about Gerrard; the question is, if a Liverpoo; captain is convicted of crime of physical violence, should he retain the captaincy.
My personal feelings about the court decision should not detract from the underlying question. if it was Sami Hyypia or Jamie Carrgher involved, the question would remain the same.
Bikram - Are you suggesting that Itandje deliberately intended to insult the Hillsborough families? That he got out of bed that morning and though 'right, today I'm going to smile during the service!'. No. Thus, it was not deliberate. Insensitive, ill-advised and unthinking, yes. Deliberate? No.
And this is slightly off topic, but since you brought it up. 'Stevie never once offended the club, its traditions, or its fans'.
You're having a laugh, right?
No player in the history of the club has offender the traditions of the club and its fans as much as Gerrard. The whole Chelsea saga is proof of that.
1. Literally several months after being made Liverpool captain, and after endlessly telling the oress how much he loved Liverpool, he was on the verge of leaving for Chelsea. He ended up staying.
2. After that, he again endlessly professed his love for the club, the fans and blah blah blah. Then, in the summer, Chelsea come knocking again. He actully leaves this time, but then changes his mind and comes back.
No player has evern disrespected the club this much. You're given the honour of captaining your hometown club and then try and leave twice for the bright lights of London because all you're interested in is trophies.
Give me one instance in *history* where a homegrown player captaining their club has lied to the fans so much and tried to leave the club they love in two consecutive seasons.
Of course, Liverpool fans will never accept this, just like they'll never accept that Gerrard's self-defence claim was pure fantasy. Gerrard's traitorous behaviour was and is rationalised to make it sound better, but in the cold light of day, he tried to leave twice; he WANTED to leave twice, despite having the incredible honour of being the captain of his hometown club.
This is all water under the bridge now, but since you brought it up...
Jamie, your article made some very good points, and took a bit of courage - given the predicatable reaction of certain fans. I've always thought we, Liverpool fans, are better than many. I guess part of that needs to be looking at ourselves honestly. So keep these articles coming.
- Dave
Steven Gerrard got in a fight. Thats not that big of a deal. If you live in the real world good people make mistakes all of the time we are not perfect. As far as I am concerned it was one on one when Gerrard was invloved his friend struck first the guy stimbled towards him and Gerrard stuck believing at the time he was about to be attacked. It was after Gerrard was pulled off that his friends beat the dude stupid. Fighting is dumb and he should not have let himself get in the situation but he did and I feel he will have learned a lesson from the situation. He has a previously spotless record and even the Judge said he could leave the court room with his reputation intact. Now this article goes on to condem a man that was found innocent of a crime. You should be ashamed of yourself for that. Gerrard has always acted appropriatly in the past and I feel he will continue to do so in the future. He made a mistake he was found innocent of the crime I still respect him very much maybe even more so after this incident it helps to show that he is just human like the rest of us. YNWA
I forgot to sign I am the anonymous post above
Coley Richardson
USA, Alabama
Hi Coley - thanks for your comments. I see your take on things and that's fine. I did not, however, 'condemn' Gerrard in my article. I cast no aspersions on his ability as a captain or anything of that nature. My argument is purely theoretical, something which not many people seem willing to accept.
1. Gerrard was found innocent by a Jury
2. I personally do not believe Gerrard acted in self defence.
However...
I respect the court decision, even if I have reservations over the veracity of Gerrard's story.
None of the above has any bearing on the central question: Should a footballer who captains their club retain that responsibility if they have been convicted of a crime of physical violence?
It just so happens that Gerrard is the captain at this time and got involved in the situation. The question (and the poll) would've been the same irrespective of who was captain.
People need to stop veering off the issue and attempting to make out that my article was an attack on Gerrard; it clearly isn't.
When I say 'disappointing results' in the opening sentence, I am not referring to the fact that Gerrard was found not guilty, I am referring to fact that 70% of fans in the poll would want a Liverpool captain to remain captain even if he was convicted of serious crime.
I don't know how many times I have to explain this but I think it's pretty clear.
Jaimie,
What I am speaking of is aying that Gerrards incident is worse than Itandje incident. If you put throeing a couple of three punches on a balance scale with laughing and joking at a memorial service for 96 victims of a horrible situation than I feel it is easy to see which one would bottom out. That is what I am speaking when I say that the article is condeming.
Gerrard has a spotless record. Even if he was to be found guilty in the light of the incident ,his previous record and all of the people who know him personally such a Daglish and LFC's Chaplain who spoke so highly of him I feel he still should have retained the Captain spot. However, If something was to occur in the future then I could see him losing it.
Jaimie, Do you remember an incident last year when a child ran in front of gerrard's vehicle and he hit him (going the speed limit). He stopped and stayed and helped to comfort the child until rescue personnel arrived. I do not think that is the personality of a man that does not have his head on striaght. From all I have read and seen on the feild about Gerrard he is a good man who made a mistake. So, for Gerrard and only Gerrard (this is because I have reads a lot about him) I would say that even if if was found quilty I would be happy to see him with the captain's armband if he was found quilty. Concidering this particular situation. YNWA
Coley Richardson
Coley - with respect, you've fallen into the trap of many Liverpool fans when it comes to the Itandje incident. You state he was 'laughing and joking' at the memorial service. This is 100% not true. He did not laugh and he did not joke. Laughing and joking is how some irresponsible newspapers reported the incident, and Liverpool fans - despite seeing the footage that contradicted this - perpetuated this myth.
The question is why?
I imagine that if it was Gerrard caught smirking at the service and it was reported as 'laughing and joking', fans would be falling over themselves to ensure this exaggeration of the truth was corrected.
As I've argued earlier though, fans don't care when it's a player they don't idolise.
And yes, I remember the car incident from last year, and it is great that Gerrard stayed with the kid. But what else is he supposed to do? leave the scene of an accident? He did what the majority of people would do; what the law requires you to do. Doing things that you're supposed to by law doesn't make you a Saint, but I take your point.
While accusing supporters of hypocricy, you seem overlook your won hypocritic statements as well
1. On the basis of one poll voted on by a few people, you claim that "Liverpool fans are star struck fans who glorify and deify players" and talk or rampaging hypocricy. How can you label all LFC supporters as such based on a higly slective poll? Is that not hypocricy, or do you feel that your poll is a true reflection of what all LFC fans worldwide may feel?
2. Again you assume that if it was Gerrard, Torres and Carragher in Itandje's place, the incident would have been quitetly buried. How can you draw your conclusions based on a hypothetical situation that never happened? Does that not make you a hypocrite? While we are at assumptions, many posters here are of the view that you are a closet Manc, who derived perverse pleasure in the miseries of LFC. Of course this may be untrue, but that does not stop people from assumign things just like you.
3. In your opinion, the Gerard's actions were unprovoked; based on CCTV and other evidence presented to the Crown court, the jury and others were of the opinion that there was verbal and physical provocation. Having a different point of view makes someone a hypocrite?
4. As Bikram pointed you, you were quick to post a link to RoM feature on English talent in Liverpool and Utd teams and used that information to buttress your arguments in the past. But when Bikram pointed out the fallacies in that argument, you attempt the evade the question by attempting to deflect attention to comments on different websites. Bikram was merely pointing out the inconsistencies in that feature, which you refused to respond to. Some lesser mined souls may take that as an admission of your being a closet Manc. re they justified in their assumptions as you clam to be in yours?
5. To clarify, I was one of those who voted for Gerrad to be relieved of captaincy in case he was found guilty, because I believe that it would be the right thing to do, but I do not call other supporters hypocrites and star-struck for holding differing views.
6. This may be off topic, but in regards to your opinion on Alonso affair, reports have suggested that the reason Alonso wishes to go to Madrid is more to do with him wanting to play in Spain at the peak of his abilities than the precieved injustices meted out to him by Rafa as per your diatribes. But I do not say that you are entirely wrong about this, it's a combination of factors that non apart from those involved know in their entirety.
Harry
1. My view about LFC fans deifying players does not come from one poll; it is an opinion formed over a number of years. I've argued this point countless times in previous articles; the poll and the fan reaction to Gerrard's potential conviction just reinfornces my view. I don't see how hypocrisy applies in this context.
2. Having an opinion about hypothetical situation is not automatically hypocritical. That would be a bit silly, don't you think? My assumption about how Gerrard/Carrgher would be treated in the same situation is based on probability and past experience. Are you denying that it is more likely that gerrard and Carragher would be treated less harshly than Itandje in the same situation?
3. I don't get your point here. I haven't called anyone a hypocrite purely for having a different opinion. However, when people with said opinion have treated others in similar situations differently in the past, then that is hypocritical in my view.
4. I again have no idea what you're talking about here. What's the big deal with posting a link to an article about young talent on another website?! The article is not derogatory towards Liverpool, it just states facts about the number of english players in the team. Since when did telling the truth become so wrong? All this closet-manc is tiresome and cliched now. If people want to think that, I couldn't care less. Anyone with any sense can see it's a cretinous idea at best.
Harry I forgot to address the Alonso point. Yes, no one knows for sure why he wants to leave. In such circumstances, we can make inferences based on the available evidence, and in my view, based on the evidence I would say it's probable that Benitez's treatment of the player is the principal reason he wants to leave.
Jamie
1. Hypocricy applies in this context, because you cannot take a poll of 1000 odd people as a barometer for all LFC fans worldwide and what they feel on the issue. At best this indicates that a majority those who participated in this poll (LFC fans or not) were in favour of Gerrard being retained as the captain irrespective of the outcome of his trial. This does not extend to all LFC supporters and the any attempt to do so would be in my opinion mischevious and inaccurate.
2. I merely stated that we have no way of knowing how things would have panned out, in case Gerrard and Carragher were guility of what Itandje did. You mention basing arguments about past experiences and probabaility, well past experiences have shown that these two players as nothing but impecabble and devout Liverpool fans, who have never ever been accused of harming or disrespecting the traditions of the club. Based on this evidence, the probability of such a thing happening is minimal, don't you agree? For all the noises made about Itandje, he's still contracted to us and not been kicked out of the club. It was meant to send a message out that the club held the memory of those who perished in Hillsborough in high esteem and any trivialisation of that would never be tolerated. Of course, I do not say the motives are entirely altrusitic and/or noble, but they made a point and they stcuk to it.
3. Yes I agree with you there, that those willing to slate others for similar crimes, but willing to turn a blind eye to those by one of their own are surely hypocrites.
4. I never made a big deal about you posting a link to RoM, you need not be overly defensive about it. I merely pointed out the arguments raised by Bikram in one of the comments above regarding the information presented in that article. Instead of responding to those points, you evaded the query by talking about posters on different websites. Telling the truth is right, but then you must be ready to defend what you feel is truth against all the questions raised against an argument. Bikram tabled observations on the English componenet of Utd team and how most of them were purchased rather than groomed, something that you did not respond to.
All that I am saying is that your refusal/reluctance/inability to respond to Bikram's comments does nothing to expunge the "cretinious ideas" that some may have formed. Here I must clarify, it matters to me not whether you are a closet Manc or not. It's none of my buisness and every individual is free to support whichever, team/organisation/individual they like. That a more successful team has more
supporters is an indisputable fact and none should begrudge anyone from supporting such a team.
Alonso situation- Point taken, we all make inferences on our observation of events and as you say, Benitez's treatment may have a role to play in this, but there is enough evidence out there to suggest that Xabi wants to retrun to play in Spain at the peak of his career. I wish such alternative explanations were included in your overwhelmingly one-sdied post on Xabi Alonso's impending departure a few days back. A balanced article makes for a much better and insightful reading, which I am sure you'll agree with.
Too much opinion dressed up as fact in Kanwar's diatribes. Too many condtionals: "if this" and "if that"...Why not just take things as they are? By the way, I feel you wanted to be able to follow this poll up with the fact of Gerrard's guilt. Instead you have to come to terms with his innocence. I am sure you would have used the holier-than-thou argument if Gerrard had been found guilty, but his innocence has cut the ground from under your feet. Do you want to return to the days when Ray Kennedy got shipped out of the club for a hushed up brawl in a hotel? Yes, juries get it wrong sometimes too and we just have to use our common sense. This whole business has been a storm in a teacup and neither a guilty or not guilty verdict would have had any influence on Gerrard's position at the club. Thankfully times have changed.
Jaimie, I have a question, did he go to Chelsea either time? The answer is No. And the second time he did it, he did it because contract negotiations broke down and he *changed his mind one day later*. Yes, he flirted with Chelsea, but he was at a time that, first time, wasn't really winning trophies. Michael Owen left that summer, didn't he? Stevie flirted, that's for sure, but he never actually went to Chelsea.
You say
"No player in the history of the club has offender the traditions of the club and its fans as much as Gerrard"
What about Owen? What about McManaman? And thats just from the 1990s, I'm sure there are a lot more examples.
Also, there has been no player who has been so inspirational to us. There is a reason Gerrard was voted No. 2 amongst the players who shook the Kop. Its because of his passion for the club. And you can twist facts how much ever you want, but let me tell you this one very basic, simple fact "Stevie Gerrard has stayed at Liverpool for life, and has captained us to 2 glorious successes and played a major role in each". The reason the fans forgive Gerrard so much is because he plays so passionately for Liverpool.
Let me also ask you this. What makes a club? Its traditions, history, values and supporters. When those very supporters believe that Gerrard is so inspirational, who are you to say that he's offended the club's traditions etc. so much. If it weren't for Gerrard, we wouldn't have won either our last FA Cup or UEFA Champions League.
Also, you focus too much on what Gerrard says. While he is 100% responsible for what he says, I think you don't understand who Gerrard is when you actually take him seriously for what he says. If we are to take Gerrard's word seriously, then he believes playing for England is more important than playing for Liverpool. OF course, his performances tell a completely different story. While I do feel a little betrayed by the fact that he did put in a transfer request, as long as plays for Liverpool as passionately as he does, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because I believe actions speak louder than words, don't you?
As for the Cantona thing, I must admit, I didn't really look up the facts, but I did remember him not going to jail. But the argument still holds, he did only get community service, for a far worse offence. He kicked the guy, and then punched him several times.
As for Man U not doing the same, what about Roy Keane tackling Haaland *with the intent* to injure him. Wasn't he kept as captain even after that? And that was just one incident in Keane's illustrious career of thuggery and bar brawls. Now, please don't try and skip the issue by saying that it doesn't matter to you because Keane's a Manc, and you deal only with Liverpool. You did say earlier that if Gerrard were playing for Man U and this happened, he'd be stripped of his captaincy.
Finally, Itjande. Yes, he did not wake up that morning thinking, "Oh, let me go offend some families", but he did behave like a tool while knowing the gravity of the ceremony. Just as ignorance of the law is no legal excuse, ignorance of custom and manner is no social excuse. It was either his ignorance, or his chutzpah (I love that word) which led to his behavior. Like I already asserted, yes, it was a mistake, but it was far more offensive to me, a Liverpool fan, than Gerrard bashing up some disrespectful DJ (and he was disrespectful, he cursed Gerrard out before Gerrard did anything to him).
Why should I bother what Gerrard does in the bar, or the bedroom, for that matter?
hi jamie..
let me quickly add my views on most topics discussed in your article and the comments.
1.Just watching the CCTV footage which is far from convincing you cannot say that he was unprovoked and not an act of self defense.The court is in a better position to judge.The first line the victim said to gerrard was "you r not f***king playin any music around here"
2.I agree and most fans also do that he shouldn't hav hit the guy,that happened n there is no justification but "3punches during a drunk fight" is not the kind of incident that defines the character of a person.Every criminal offence doesnt come under the same roof like u seem to suggest.There is a line to be drawn and i believe LFC fans know it fully well.Anyway this is not an incident which could or should decide his captaincy.And hes always been held highly by anyone who knew him personally.
3.Next your 'If it was stevie,carra,torres' line on the Itandje incident is stupid coz stevie or carra would've never done that, thats the difference.
4.Then the one which really offended me.You are suggesting that if you are made the captain of your hometown club then you cant get transfered!!!!!!. You r trying to say that him wanting to leave the club was the biggest dishonour,then u must be out of your mind.At that time LFC was europe's premier 'ONE MAN CLUB' and he was shouldering the weight of the whole the pathetic team that played so poorly apart from him and carra. So it was quite natural and yet finally his love for the club prevailed.
And if u've not noticed J.Terry is interested in the manc offer. So does that make him a traitor. If at all stevie would hav been justified had he left the club at that time.
I think fans like you dont deserve a player like our captain..
and while i'm saying all this u shoul know that had sg left it would've been one of the saddest moments in my life n i would've been heartbroken..
5.finally i find it hard to believe you are a liverpool fan considering how low you see your fellow fans.for your kind info LFC fans r not all bad....
if you taken your time to read this.. i expect a reply..
cheers
Anwith
India
"No player in the history of the club has offender the traditions of the club and its fans as much as Gerrard"
this shows your unabshed hatred for sg if you r an LFC fan that is.. and you are talking crap..
Anwith
India
Harry - I do not need to respond to Bikram's points about young English players because this thread is nothing to do with that issue! Bikram went off-topic there and I prefer to stay on topic. I didn't post the link because I agreed with the article; I posted it because I thought would be of interest to Liverpool fans. I'm sure Bikram is correct about United's players being purchased rather than groomed, but I have not argued otherwise, have I? That debate is for another time.
And re balanced articles - I don't know how many times I have to say this (!) but I do not hold myself out as writing balance articles. Why should I? I'm a fan with my own opinion, therefore I write the way I see things. This site is based on opinion; if you want balance, I suggest yout go and read the BBC website.
A bit naughty using Gerrard as an exampleto explain the actions of Itandje wouldn't you say!!
You do know Gerrard's cousin was one of the 96?
Bikram
Whether Gerrard left or not is irrelevant. He wanted to leave and almost did, all whilst telling the fans how much he loved Liverpool and would never dream of leaving. The aggravating factor here is that Gerrard was:
1. Young - only 23 at the time
2. Had just been handed the captaincy - an amazing honour.
3. Had been developed by Liverpool into the player he was.
If Gerrard had given years of senior team service it would have been a different story. He hadn't. He wanted the quick fix: go to Chelsea and win trophies NOW instead of putting in the hard work to win them with Liverpool.
The comparison with Owen and Canaan is false:
1. Owen wasn't the captain; neither was McManaman. Being the captain makes all the difference.
2. McManaman had done his bit; he'd been at the club for 10 years and was 27. He'd been a superb player for Liverpool. Why shouldn't he leave if he wanted to?
3. Neither player put the club through the wringer like Gerrard did. Twice almost leaving; the second time actually leaving (with his departure being reported in the press and on the official site) and then deciding to come back.
Let's just imagine for a second that it was, say, Ryan Babel who acted in such a way. He wanted to leave then stayed; then after months of telling fans how much he loved Liverpool, he wanted to leave again. I'm sure - in fact, I know - that fans would be calling him a traitor and blah blah blah. They're doing this now with Xabi Alonso (!) and he has every right to want to leave. It's only because it's Gerrard that people are hypocritical and try and justify everything.
Having said that, he has made amends over the years with his performances and he should be forgiven for his actions. This does not change what happen though.
And I completely disagree with you re 'no other player being as inspirational for Liverpool'. Liddell; Keegan; Dalglish; Souness; Barnes and the list goes on. How you can even suggest that Gerrard is more inspirational than Dalglish - who won league championships as a manager and a player and played major parts in the club winning 3 European Cups - is beyond me, but it's a matter of personal opinion, so we'll leave it at that.
How many times are we going to have to listen to the cliché that 'without Gerrard, Liverpool wouldn't have won the last FA Cup/CL?! It's just plain WRONG and is further evidence of how fans are so blinded by their love for Gerrard that they do not consider things objectively;
1. During the CL winning run, Gerrard played only 7 of the 14 games on the way to the final.
2. Without Luis Garcia's goals, Gerrard would not have even had the chance to be in the final.
3. Without Neil Mellor and Sinama Pongolle's impact against Olympiakos, Liverpool would have been out of the competition. Gerrard was anonymous in that game until he score the third goal. Great goal it was too, but it took Mellor and Pongolle to shake Liverpool up and get the belief going again, not Gerrard.
4. In the final, Gerrard scored a crucial goal, but Vladimir Smicer's goal was arguably more important because it took Liverpool within touching distance of catching Milan. At 1-3 there was still a mountain to climb.
I don't dispute that Gerrard was influential in the final, but you disrespect the entire team by suggesting it was all down to him that the CL was won. Every player played their part along the way to that victory; it was definitely not all down to Gerrard.
How long are Liverpool fans going to be rolling out these clichés?!
Continued from above:
I agree with you re Cantona - his offence was worse in terms of the violence; however, he was provably provoked. The guy who provoked him was convicted and banned from football grounds for a year. He also had previous convictions and he was a member of the BNP. Basically, he was a typical yob, and in my view he deserved everything Cantona threw at him.
I'm still not quite sure what point you're trying to prove re the Cantona thing.
re Keane - you're trying to prove a point that doesn't exist. As I said earlier, the fact that the likes of Keane, Adams, Terry etc remained as captains despite their behaviour is a sad indictment of English football. They should have been stripped of the honour, but they weren't.
And I did not say if Gerrard had been paying for United and the Lounge Inn thing happened he would have been stripped of the captaincy; I suggested that if Gerrard was banned for 8 months like Cantona he would be stripped of the captaincy.
Re Itandje - I agree, he was stupid. The point is he did not deserve the exaggerated revulsion thrown his way afterwards. Look at you, calling him a 'tool' even now!
You seem very sure that Gerrard was verbally provoked before lashing out. Oh, I forgot - Gerrard said so in his testimony so it *must* be true.
McGhee was outnumbered six or seven to one. Are we seriously to believe that *after being elbowed in the face* and knowing that Gerrard was part of a big group of guys who were (clearly) willing to be violent, that he went on the attack?!
Is this normal behaviour? One guy goes to attack someone part of a bigger group?! If you believe that, then with respect, you need your head examined.
And why should you bother what Gerrard does in a bar? Are you serious? He is an ambassador for the club *at all times he is public*. he has a responsibility to act professionally at all times.
Using your logic, I guess we should not care if a footballer decides to murder someone. After all, if it didn't happen on the pitch, who cares, right?
That manc McGhee was after the money anyway, sdo his little cash-cow has disappeared.
And Kanwar, you gonna look unhappy when it's Steven lifting the league AS CAPTAIN at the end of the season!
Steven Gerrard is our captain
Steven Gerrard is a red
Steven Gerrard plays for Liverpool
A Scouser born and bred!!
@Anon - how do you know McGhee was after money? I suppose he was thinking about money while he was being elbowed in the face by Gerrard's thug mate?
And I will not be unhappy if Gerrard lifts the league as captain. I want Liverpool to win the league.
Yet but how do know that Mcghee didn't say something unwarranted. I know John Doran he's no thug, he was looking out for his mate, which is why a couple of them were trying to drag Steven away from it.
And if it was such a bad attack, why did half the press photos after the attack show no marks or anything on that McGhee's face.
McGhee's a manc, of course he was after the money!
It's bad enough having bitter and manc idiot's creating petitions and jailstevengerrard websites without our own fans sticking the knife in!
Knowwarramean la!
So - 'looking out for your mate' justifies elbowing someone in the face?
Let mask you a question: In terms of casuality, who is most to blame for this incident occurring? Let's take a look at the factual chain of events:
1. Gerrard approaches McGhee and asks to play some songs
2. McGhee refuses. Gerrard leaves.
Okay - at this stage, it's over. If Gerrard just leaves it alone and goes about his business none of this mess happens.
But Gerrard didn't do the responsible thing.
Gerrard approached McGhee a second time.
As a direct result of that approach, the incident occurred.
Why did he NEED to approach Mcghee a second time? What did McGhee do to provoke such a violent response? Did he lash out? No. Did he use any kind of physical violence or intimidation? No. Is there ANY evidence at all - including CCTV footage - that McGhee was going to strike Gerrard? No.
Whether McGhee is a manc or not is irrelevant.
Jamie
Once again you twist the facts to suit your objectives.. take this for instance..
"the fans would be calling him a taritor like they are Xabi ALonso"...
I have visisted many forums and boards discussing LFC issues and spoken to many fans and it's a miniscule minority who have anything bad to say about Xabi even if he leaves, then why do you make it appear as if LFC fans in general are guilty of this?
Owen did not put ud through a wringer?? Stalling on a contract for over a year and then leaving for a mere 8 million, causing us to lose out on millions is not a wringer?
There is no evidence that McGhee DID NOT provoke Gerrard, the CCTV evidence is fairly inconclusive, I DO NOT condone what Gerrard did there, but to claim that there were no apparent provocations at all is frivolous and mischevious in my opinion. Do you know why Gerrard approached McGhee a second time? Were you present? Were you aware of the kind of provocation that may have happened there? You must know that it was not just because Gerrard said so, the court and the jury examiined the evidence and found merit in his assertsions and must have seen something that you and I do not know, which led them to acquit him cleanly. Or do you think, jury and the crown court made an error on this?
That said, it is true that Gerrard is an abassador for the club and it is upto him to keep an impecable behaviour while in public. For whatever reasons, his actions were unbecoming of his stature.
You talk about Mellor and Pongolle and their impact in that game against Olympiakos...does it mean that the rest of the team did not have an impact and it was all down to them? By the same logic, without the impact of Gerrard and that first goal, the team may not have found encouragement to lift themesleves and effect a spirited comeback.
You talk about Bikram going off topic, but apparently you have no qualms straying off topic yourslef when it suits you. You feel it necessary to sneak in references to Alonso, to Gerrard's near departure, to Itnadje, all of which have nothing to do with the issue at hand. But then it's difficult to admit that one's wrong isn't it?
Harry - The Alonso/Itandje references have everything to do with this topic in that they are used as examples of how fans have reacted to other players. Discussing another post on another site that tackles a completely different, unrelated issue is clearly off-topic.
Re Gerrard and McGhee - Yes, we DO know why Gerrard approached McGhee a second time. In Gerrard's testimony to the court, he stated that he approached McGhee the second time "smooth things over".
But what was he smoothing over? Again, according to Gerrard's testimony, McGhee said the following horrific and deeply offensive words:
"You are not putting no fucking music on here."
According to Gerrard, that is the extent of McGhee's 'provocation'.
So - because Mcghee said Gerrard wasn't putting any music on, he felt the need to go back over there a second time and smooth things over.
He should have just stayed away, no?
Did McGhee's words deserve being elobowed in the face by one person and then punched by Gerrard? I would argue no...even if he is a Manc ;-)
Factual chains of events? Where did you get this info from? How did you know McGhee didn't lash out? Were you there? Can you confirm any of your factual events are true?
I would imagine the chain of events *as stated in Court* and backed up by the CCTV footage would constitute a factual chain of events, wouldn't you say?
Facts:
1. Gerrard approached Mcghee to play some music.
2. Gerrard was reubuffed, and returned to his friends.
3. gerrard returned a second time to 'smooth things over' with McGhee
4. Mcghee did not physically touch Gerrard. In Gerrard's own words:
"I am certainly mistaken in thinking he was coming towards me to throw punches at me".
5. McGhee was elbowed in the face by one of Gerrard's friends
6. Gerrard punched McGhee
jesus jamie you said this was about the fans and gerrard, yet you STILL wittle on about the events that happend that night in the club with a very negative view on stevie's actions.
HE IS INNOCENT.
Im also concernd at your pessimistic opinions on your fellow fan.. everything that everyone does everyday is judged by others, and we sum up our opinion on people or groups by basic moral issues. Most can probably relate to that 'fight' stevie had, and it was a minor so no big deal. i witnessed my very shy little bro get his nose broken in a club for no reason whatsoerver and the police told him to get a taxi home!!!! yet gerrard ends up in court.
Thats because some people are different, some people do have god like status', the dhali lahma, mandella, for example. Who knows why certain people have special talents or skills.
Gerrard is our captain, he bleeds LFC, LFC is a family club, most have let this slide cuz it aint a biggie. i feel i can speak for ALL FANS when i say if he were to rape, murder OR hit and run someone etc OF COURSE we would want him out. OF COURSE there is a limit of what we will accept. you have no faith in us Jaimie!
Christopher - my original article is about the fan response, but countless people in the comments have turned this into a Gerrard thing - I have just responded to questions and queries. I reiterate again:
1. The reason for the poll was to highlight the hypocrisy of fans when it comes selective support they provide for our players. It's definitely case of 'All players are equal, but some players are more equal than others'.
2. The underlying question is and always has been: If a Liverpool captain (or indeed any captain at any club) is convicted of a crime of physical violence, should they retain the captaincy?
3. That I believe Gerrard's self-defence claim is weak is irrelevant. As you say, he was found not guilty, and I accept that. I am, however, allowed to have an opinion on whether the not-guilty verdict is correct. Or is it the case that every not-guilty verdict in every case in the history of mankind has been beyond dispute?!
4. I have discussed the events of that night only because people in this thread have raised the issue. In my original post, I passed no judgement on the veracity of the decision. In fact, I said it was 'great' that Gerrard had been found not guilty.
Where did you get the chain of events *as stated in Court*?
JAIME, READ THIS.
SERMON OF A FAN
I AM A FAN. I RESERVE ALL RIGHTS TO RANT, RAVE, SCREAM, SHOUT, SING, LAUGH, CRY BECAUSE OF THE ONE I SUPPORT, BE IT CLUB OR COUNTRY. I ALSO RESERVE ALL RIGHTS TO SCOLD, BE BLIND, BE IGNORANT AND BE A HYPOCRITE AS LONG AS MY TEAM WINS, OR EVEN DOES WELL OR EVEN WHEN IT HAS LOST. I CAN AND RESERVE ALL RIGHTS TO BLAME THE OWNERS, SHAREHOLDERS, THE MANAGER, THE PLAYER/S, THE REFEREE, THE PITCH, THE WEATHER, THE FANS, THE RECESSION, THE WEALTH OF THE OTHER TEAM, THE POLICE, THE QUALITY OF WATER, MY MOM, MY DAD, MY SIBLING, MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOUR, HIS CAT, THE 666 NO ON MY TICKET, GOD, HIS ANGELS, the devil, its spawns, THE GRASS, THE TREES, THE BLUE SKY, THE GREY SKY, Anonymous, Jaimie, Chris, Bikram, Harry. AS A FAN, ALL AND SUNDRY CAN BE ACCUSED, CAN BE REWARDED, CAN BE BLAMED, CAN BE WORSHIPPED.
THAT IS MY RIGHT. IF YOU DONT AGREE, JOIN THE OTHER TEAM. ANY TEAM. JUST DONT CALL YOURSELF A FAN.
THE FAN.
I just watched the game in spore last night. what a night for FANS. We got what we deserved, for our wholehearted blind faith worship of our players and club. We love our club and no one person, such as you Jaime, can change our hypocritical support. YES. YAHOO. WE ARE HYPOCRITES OF THE HIGHEST ORDER. SO WHAT. WE won 5 - 0 , we had Torres and Alonson on the pitch along with all our fav's (except SG) and we are HAPPY!!!!
The FAN
- Should Gerrard retain captainship?
Certainly most LFC fans would say yes but why should he retain captainship. I think Jaimie(By the way are you Indian) you have a right to your opinion but I would oppose it simply because Gerrard has had a perfect record with LFC and his services, you would also agree, have been great towards LFC.
You pointed out the fact that Gerrard isn't a star. Fair enough. But think of him as your employee.
1.He has earned us atleast a top five finish every premier league season.
2.He earned us a champions league in which he and Carra were instrumental.
3.He has scored more than 100 goals for LFC in his 11+ seasons meaning :
4.He has provided a great number of assists.
Keeping in mind all that has been listed above he has not been involved in any wrong doings for atleast 11 years with LFC.
So why deprive him of his well earned captainship after so much efficient service. I feel it would be extremely unfair to do so. One bad event does not cancel out his whole career's hardwork.
He has had offers with Chelsea but he stayed loyal to LFC.
Also, those who have been punished by their clubs have been involved in persistent wrong doings e.g Joey Barton(was suspended by Newcastle), Ronaldinho(was sold because of his influence in the dressing room)
Joey Barton was surprisingly allowed into the club despite the magnitude of his offence so Gerrard shouldn't be allowed captainship for a single punch
Jaimie please think over it :)
Email: bluffboy93@yahoo.com
Quite ridiculous how liverpool fans are condoning the 'self defence' that Gerrard felt was required that night with 6 of his mates in back up. You have all missed the point of the article and are actually justifying his point further. Gerrard cannot hold his head high after all of this and the person who would tell you that most is steven gerrard himself. Andy
I lived in Liverpool for years an saw the abuse and hassle that the players get anytime i saw them in public, I dont condem Stevie for his actions but dont think he should be strung out because he hit a guy!
Jaimie
On this one, you've got it absolutely right. I'm hoping that the results from your poll are merely down to the "anti cult" following you've ammassed. I can't possibly believe that genuine Liverpool fans would want to see a convict leading our team.
As for the Itandje, if you were a genuine Liverpool supporter you would understand how he disgraced the club and the mark of respect to the 96 people who died with the song that was being sung about them. He danced and acted like a muppet, Plessis looked very uncomfortable and so did the people around him who seen what he was at.
Gerrard was cleared not guilty due to there was doubt among the jury towards to the case put forward by the prosecution for that Manc and the CCTV footage didn't show much in regards to Gerrard's part to prove without a doubt he was guilty of affray. If there is doubt in terms of Law the case would be thrown out or the defendent found not guilty. As the Judge said, "you're character will remain intact"
hey jamie.
you did not reply for my earlier posts
lemme tell you few more things
according to the actual court details gerrard actually got permission from the club manager sabrina to play music so this guy had no right to stop him and also that line wasnt the only thing this guy said to gerrard.
hope u'll reply atleast this time to my previous post as well
ashamed of the fact that you are a fellow fan
cheers
Anwith
India
Jamie,
I totally agree with your article especially regarding Itandje.
As far as the whole Gerrard thing goes I think the worst example to the public/kids etc is the media and the justice system. Firstly I want to point out that I am glad that Gerrard was found innocent and will have no stain on his record etc etc.
What I find totally ridiculous is that we can spend so long discussing this whole sorry affair. Should he be captain etc etc. In my opinion the club should discipline him somehow although I'm not sure how they could do this after he was found "innocent.." He is supposed to be an ambassador to our club and a role model. His actions were disgraceful end of story. He is in the public eye and should always remember that. However I believe saying he should be stripped of the captaincy is going too far. However bad his actions on this occasion who of us can say that we could cope any better under such scrutiny.
My main issue with this whole thing is the media led storm that followed the incident. I do not mean to personally attack the gentleman on the receiving end of Gerrard & Co's blows but does anybody seriously believe that the police would have been called if it was just another "Joe Bloggs" who had thrown a couple of punches? These sorts of minor altercations happen in every town/city across the country on most weekends and more often than not pass without anyone being any the wiser.
And Gerrards alleged three uppercut combo is hardly comparable to Joey Barton knocking a teanager to the floor and repeatedly punching him in the head!! I am sure Gerrard is no angel but I don't think anybody will agree with you over a compariosn between Joey Barton & Gerrard! Joey Barton is a thug who had been given chance after chance and fails to repay those believing in him. He should never be allowed to play professional football! I think it is a disgrace that such a thug can be allowed to earn tens of thousands of pounds EVERY week! Especially when there are so many reformed criminals out there who struggle to get accepted for even a minimum wage job due to their records!
Jaimie, you sound like a great captain on the wings. Don't tell me you are actually John Terry or Rio Ferdinand in disguise!!
Gerrard should have been made an example of and be given community service work at least. What it shows is common british complacency toward thuggish behaviour. So many people wrote "how many others get into fights every night". It would have been as good a time as ever for the british govt to make an example out of someone. Nobody cares if your brother or cousin gets locked up. The English as a people need to be less tolerant of violent behaviour.
So Gerrard was found not guilty. Its over now, nothing to be said about it.
The club should at least make a statement to the world by making Carra captain instead, at least for the season, as punishment. I'm sure it'll make Stevie stronger.
I love Stevie, but if he had done this to my family, how would i feel?
Post a Comment